Some High Guard questions from a new guy

[billclo]

Hey guys, I’ve been working on a ship design for High Guard, and I have a few questions.

I’m working on a TL 15 design, and under the advanced spacecraft rules (page 53, High Guard), it mentions decreases in size and increases in cost due to high tech level, and weapon or screen upgrades.

1) My question is this: assume I’m building a TL 15 100 ton bay. I’m making it a particle bay (tech 8 ). Do I get to build it 40% lighter (and 200% more expensive) PLUS be able to apply 7 upgrades, or 4, or none? (being as the text on pg 53 says that instead of decreasing the tonnage of the weapon or screen, you can select upgrades). I guess the real gist of it is, do I get to just make the weapon 40% lighter (and 200% more expensive) and that’s all I can do, or can I do that PLUS add up to 7 more upgrades? Or keep the full size and apply up to x upgrades?

2)With regard to hull upgrades, it mentions reinforced structure and reinforced hull. I see the chart stops at 20,000 tons (+16 structure points, +40 hull points). For a capital ship, is that for the whole ship and then divided by however many sections the hull has? Or per section?

It doesn’t look like it makes any sense to buy either reinforced hull or structure past 20,000 tons to me. Correct?

3)Can you have more than one distributed sensor array per craft (say 1 online and multiple backups)? Or on a capital ship, can you have one per section with backups?

4) Spinal weapons: can you apply upgrades to them as you can with bay/turret weapons or are you stuck with the lower weight/higher damage per the chart on page 66?

5) Concerning frozen watches. The rules say that if you have enough frozen personnel to cover 50% then you have a frozen watch. That makes no sense to me because the crew status steps (weakened, full, battle, over strength, massively over strength) don’t use increments of 50% of the crew. So why couldn’t I have a over strength crew (121% of normal crew), with enough frozen crew to re-populate from say battle level to over strength? This would require fewer than 50% nominal crew.

6) The barrage rules seem to be poorly written to me. Anyone have a clarified version or who can explain it for me?

Thanks

 

[DFW]

1) My question is this: assume I’m building a TL 15 100 ton bay. I’m making it a particle bay (tech 8 ). Do I get to build it 40% lighter (and 200% more expensive) PLUS be able to apply 7 upgrades, or 4, or none?

Text on page 53 states, "Instead of decreasing the tonnage of the weapon or screen, it is possible to select upgrades for a higher–technology weapon
or screen."

 

[BP]

The example then goes on to describe how those can be combined, IIRC.

Which makes it sound like the TL 8 beam weapon with 7 TL levels can use 3 TLs for -40% volume and have 4 levels available for feature upgrades - by that rule.

However, the start of the section (or prior page), states a 3 TL max before development stops or some such. This is supported by the max +3 levels on the other tables.

So, the beam weapon would be max TL 11 and could have:
-10% tons and two regular upgrades
-10% tons and one double upgrade
-25% tons and one regular upgrade
-40% tons upgrade

It also means no multiple double upgrades (4 TLs)

That's how I've read this and seen it used in examples (which annoyingly aren't explicit - but the ones in HG I checked all seemed to follow this).

[It seems reasonable - though conflicted with my earliest designs, of course ]

 

[DFW]

The example then goes on to describe how those can be combined, IIRC.

I just reread it. You can mix. Good memory

"One upgrade may be added per extra Tech Level. For example, a TL10 Particle Bay could contain two upgrades, or have its tonnage decreased to 90%, or contain one upgrade and have its tonnage decreased to 95%."

 

[BP]

Hey - just want to create work for a fella!

Instead of decreasing the tonnage of the weapon or screen, it is possible to select upgrades for a higher–technology weapon or screen. One upgrade may be added per extra Tech Level. For example, a TL10 Particle Bay could contain two upgrades, or have its tonnage decreased to 90%, or contain one upgrade and have its tonnage decreased to 95%.

Of course, the numbers are wrong (should have been '75%' and '9o%' respectively :roll.

I believe I completely missed this too the first few times I read it (and the 3 TL 'max') - till I tried to reconcile some of the darn costs/tonnages in the stats in the book ship designs. Which actually work with these rules (with correct %s too) - including the 3 TL max.

Don't recall any mention of this in the Errata, either. But all this is from memory (except that quote above that I had to dig up - thanks to DFW... ).

 

[BP]

... Good memory

Well, sometimes... I think...

... memory is the second thing to go, you know.

(Forget what the first is...)

 

[billclo]

So I can reduce tonnage plus apply some upgrades then. Cool.

Now is it 7 upgrades (particle beams introduced Tech 8 ) for the TL 15 version, or is it 4 upgrades after taking the max 3 TL after introduction weight reduction?

 

[BP]

:lol: I believe the later...

Read the preceding paragraphs (I just put it away - thank you ) - then look at the designs in the back of the book. I believe, even when the overall TL exceeds 3 levels, only 3 levels are applied to any given weapon system.

Of course, you can do whatever - but for publication and tournaments, staying consistent would earn less criticism...

 

[SSWarlock]

I believe, even when the overall TL exceeds 3 levels, only 3 levels are applied to any given weapon system.

In theory, yes. However...*grin*

The "Dart" in the last episode of The Secret of the Ancients adventure breaks this rule. Its weaponry actually has 5 upgrades; two double upgrades (Accurate and Variable Range) plus one single upgrade (High Yield).

In another thread on this forum, I pointed out that High Guard states upgrades remain available for three TLs before "...further improvement becomes too difficult to be cost-effective" and then asked if a deep-pocketed ship builder doesn't care about the costs would more upgrades be allowed. Looks like with the Ancients at least the answer is "yes".

 

[BP]

Hehe... well if the flood gates are open...

Of course, if its an 'Ancient's' ship, then that would already be an exceptional case (like Annic Nova's jump bubble free jump drive, IIRC), so it really wouldn't be precedent setting for 'normal' ship designs.

The 3 TL limit makes a certain metagame 'balance' sense, but in-game its rather arbitrary to address an otherwise sensible aspect - I would have much rather seen the design rules state each upgrade by TL... i.e. upgrade X available at TL+1, etc.

This would have made any limits, like mutual exclusions - say range vs accuracy at various levels - more believable.

<sigh>

 

[billclo]

Everyone, thanks for the comments so far. I'm going to go with max 3 TLs for weight reduction or upgrades. Meaning up to 3 TL worth of weight reduction, and or 3 upgrade slots, or some combination.

Anyone have anything to say about the rest of my questions?

 

[BP]

Anything to say about the rest of your questions? - Yeah, Welcome to the Void, Pal!

All off the top of my head...
#2 - no idea (you just want me to look in the dang book!)
#3 - backup, sure. More than one deployed at a time probably wouldn't make sense (given the RW basis, not necessarily in a SciFi game). If you agree with that then per section is out (except as isolated backups). Anything else would really call for an independently deployed system sensor setup, IMO.
#4 - an obvious question (overlooked and unexplained as usual). Thus, I remember my own interpretation was pg 66 seems mutually exclusive to the those around pg ~52 (IIRC). Though, I could see applying the upgrade options not related to tonnage, I lost interest when I looked at the quality of rules...
#5 - I take 'frozen watch' more as a term than a rule mechanic... and have totally ignored the crew rules. Most of the capital ship combat mechanics in this book were, uh, underdeveloped...
#6 - see above. Several folks have come up with interpretations of this mess that work for them - official response is totally absent (naturally - you can't polish a turd). I believe there is (or was) a PbP on the forums centered on capital ship combat.

The idea of pitting massive ships in mortal combat is dramatically appealing - but, from a rules perspective, this really falls into the wargaming (set-piece battle) arena. For roleplaying, a totally different mentality is required - i.e. unbalanced enough that small ships can survive (maybe), or individual characters can have a large impact (without being just an armchair general in the background).

 

[DFW]

6) The barrage rules seem to be poorly written to me. Anyone have a clarified version or who can explain it for me?

Thanks

They are. They contradict small ship mechanics also. I ignore as they go against the way armor works in the game. (that's why a triple beam turret does 1D6 3 separate times rather than 3D6 combined damage)