Some concerns over the Elric RPG

[John Rohan]

OK, I'm a little late to this party, but better late than never.

I'm a long time Stormbringer fan (since 1st ed) who owns every Chaosium supplement and just purchased the Elric RPG by Mongoose. It's a great game, but I have some criticisms and concerns. I have a love/hate relationship with it right now.

Since the game is a part of the Runequest system, I'm not sure if I should post this in the Runequest or Other RPG forums, but I'll start here. Some of my concerns apply to Runequest as well.

First the good:

1. Character creation is better balanced now (previously, every non-sorcerer was a worthless character).

2. The basic skill/advanced skill system is an improvement, and it works well (although I don't understand how "seduction" is an advanced skill - anyone can attempt it, after all).

3. I'm grateful for the AP/HP system for weapons - now characters actually have a reason to parry things with a shield, as opposed to just using their weapon all the time.

4. "Hero points" are a great idea, and I love how you can also cash them in for special abilities. That was a brilliant concept. This has a lot of potential in the game that I think has hardly been tapped yet.

5. The background, nation descriptions, creatures and characters have all been very well fleshed out and beautifully described. I can tell Lawrence Whitaker really knows the source material and is a huge Moorcock fan.

6. The magic system is very well done, and reflects the books very well. But it's also rather overwhelming at the start.


Then the bad:

1. The armour/skill penalties are excessive, if I'm reading this right. -42% to your weapons skills for wearing a suit of plate mail??????? (so if your skill is already less than 42% then forget it!) I can understand such a high penalty to activities like swimming, but do you really thing it makes it that much more difficult to swing a sword or fire a bow? If it was so difficult to fight in such armour, I don't think anyone would even bother with them. As someone who has worn modern body armour while in the US Army in Iraq, I'll tell you that it certainly slows a person down and makes you much more hot and tired. But it scarcely affects your ability to handle a weapon - armour is designed to use in combat, after all.

2. Every page has almost 2 inches of stylized border around it. It's pretty, but it's also excessive, and unnecessarily increases the page count. I'm sure it also adds to the cost of the books. It certainly added to my cost - I purchased the PDFs online but took it to a local copy store to print it out. I'm sure the page count could have been cut down by almost a third without this page border.

3. No rules for binding demons into weapons. OK, I'll admit, this got out of hand in earlier versions of the game. But there should be a balanced way to incorporate this in the game now.

4. No list of example NPCs were included, which would have been very useful. (although the magic book has a section on "the host" which partially filled this void).

Then the ugly:

1. What adventure is a beginner supposed to play? NO starting scenario in the core book. NONE. There is one in the companion book, and kind of/sort of one in the magic supplement, but neither of these are very useful for a novice GM. They both largely take place in the "dreamlands", which are new to this line. The one in the companion book also involves high-scale battles and the fate of a kingdom. All we needed was a simple tomb crawl for an example of how to play this thing. The previous versions all had these in the core books. Maybe I could forgive this if there was a scenario book available, but no such luck either. There aren't even any Elric RPG scenarios in the Signs & Portents magazine. I have searched everywhere for adventures with no luck. I can convert older Elric!, Stormbringer, and Runequest adventures for this game, but since the magic system is so different, I really feel I would need a better feel for it in action before I could convert something.

I really hope the next edition takes these factors into account. I love this game and want it to reach it's potential.

 

[Loz]

Hi John,

Thank you for the questions and criticisms. Let me address the latter and, in doing so, hopefully ally some of your fears.

1. The armour/skill penalties are excessive, if I'm reading this right. -42% to your weapons skills for wearing a suit of plate mail??????? (so if your skill is already less than 42% then forget it!) I can understand such a high penalty to activities like swimming, but do you really thing it makes it that much more difficult to swing a sword or fire a bow? If it was so difficult to fight in such armour, I don't think anyone would even bother with them. As someone who has worn modern body armour while in the US Army in Iraq, I'll tell you that it certainly slows a person down and makes you much more hot and tired. But it scarcely affects your ability to handle a weapon - armour is designed to use in combat, after all.

The next edition of Elric will be based on the RQII ruleset. The armour skill penalty is gone. It works far differently and influences strike rank and movement.

2. Every page has almost 2 inches of stylized border around it. It's pretty, but it's also excessive, and unnecessarily increases the page count. I'm sure it also adds to the cost of the books. It certainly added to my cost - I purchased the PDFs online but took it to a local copy store to print it out. I'm sure the page count could have been cut down by almost a third without this page border.

Again, this is likely to be a thing of the past.

3. No rules for binding demons into weapons. OK, I'll admit, this got out of hand in earlier versions of the game. But there should be a balanced way to incorporate this in the game now.

There won't be any in the next edition either. Take a look at the source material. With the exception of Stormbringer, there are NO bound demons, or instances of that happening anywhere in the Elric saga. The aim of the game is to be faithful to the source material, so, whilst bound demons were fun in the Chaosium games, it wasn't a true reflection of the saga. They won't be making a return - balanced or otherwise.

4. No list of example NPCs were included, which would have been very useful. (although the magic book has a section on "the host" which partially filled this void).

One of the Signs and Portents back issues has a very handy gazetteer done by Charles Green. Check out the S&P back issues on the main Mongoose site.

1. What adventure is a beginner supposed to play? NO starting scenario in the core book. NONE. There is one in the companion book, and kind of/sort of one in the magic supplement, but neither of these are very useful for a novice GM. They both largely take place in the "dreamlands", which are new to this line. The one in the companion book also involves high-scale battles and the fate of a kingdom. All we needed was a simple tomb crawl for an example of how to play this thing. The previous versions all had these in the core books. Maybe I could forgive this if there was a scenario book available, but no such luck either. There aren't even any Elric RPG scenarios in the Signs & Portents magazine. I have searched everywhere for adventures with no luck. I can convert older Elric!, Stormbringer, and Runequest adventures for this game, but since the magic system is so different, I really feel I would need a better feel for it in action before I could convert something.

There are two scenarios (written by me) available in S&P again. One centres on Dragon Tombs and the other on a couple of areas little explored in Moorcock's writing save for some brief short stories. I do agree that more scenarios would be good, but I disagree that a dungeon or tomb crawl is the way to go: Moorcock's not really about such things. However, I do have a full campaign in mind that will fill the void for Elric adventures. Just need the time to get it written.

I really hope the next edition takes these factors into account. I love this game and want it to reach it's potential.

Me too.

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[John Rohan]

There are two scenarios (written by me) available in S&P again. One centres on Dragon Tombs and the other on a couple of areas little explored in Moorcock's writing save for some brief short stories.

You're referrring to S&P 50 and 72. Yes, I copied those, and will certainly incorporate them in my game, but they aren't detailed scenarios, but more like guidelines for creating a scenario in that setting.

I do agree that more scenarios would be good, but I disagree that a dungeon or tomb crawl is the way to go: Moorcock's not really about such things.

Well, it's true that D&D style "megadungeons" don't fit in a Moorcock world (or in any world really), but a small abandoned building, tomb, or cavern is certainly possible (The Tower of Ykrath Florn or The Crystal of Daedeardarth from Stormbringer 1st Ed, for example).

Edit: I notice that you are Lawrence Whitaker himself! Well, thanks for the quick response!

One more edit: I found the Elric NPC gazetteer in S&P 51. Thanks, that is extremely useful!!

 

[TrippyHippy]

There won't be any in the next edition either. Take a look at the source material. With the exception of Stormbringer, there are NO bound demons, or instances of that happening anywhere in the Elric saga.

That's a pretty significant exception, isn't it?

Anyway, my major beef with various versions of the Elric/Stormbringer game is that they just don't feel psychedelic enough to simulate the source. If they can adjust this aspect through the tone of the writing and the appearance somewhat, and expand upon the Multiverse motif more, then I'd be happy.

 

[Loz]

That's a pretty significant exception, isn't it?

Its a unique exception. You simply don't find anyone else charging around with demon axes, maces, greatswords, or armour. It doesn't happen. Demons are summoned in the books, but not bound to anything.

Anyway, my major beef with various versions of the Elric/Stormbringer game is that they just don't feel psychedelic enough to simulate the source. If they can adjust this aspect through the tone of the writing and the appearance somewhat, and expand upon the Multiverse motif more, then I'd be happy.

Are you suggesting I break-out my Jefferson Airplane albums and drop a tab or two before sitting down to write the next edition...?

 

[d(sqrt(-1))]

There won't be any in the next edition either. Take a look at the source material. With the exception of Stormbringer, there are NO bound demons, or instances of that happening anywhere in the Elric saga. The aim of the game is to be faithful to the source material, so, whilst bound demons were fun in the Chaosium games, it wasn't a true reflection of the saga. They won't be making a return - balanced or otherwise.

You mean apart from Mournblade?

Mark

 

[Steve Mitchell]

I think if you drop a tab and then listen to some Hawkwind, you'll be in a better place for what you want to do.

 

[Jarec]

I was never even convinced that the demon was ever actually bound into Stormbringer. I always felt that it was more there by choice and it just suited it to have people think it was bound.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

I was never even convinced that the demon was ever actually bound into Stormbringer. I always felt that it was more there by choice and it just suited it to have people think it was bound.

Whether it was willingly bound or not, the creation of Stormbringer and Mournblade took the combined magical might of an entire race, and one which was far more powerful than the Melniboneans to boot. Nobody, other than a Lord of Law or Chaos is going to be able to replicate that feat. :wink:

 

[John Rohan]

Whether it was willingly bound or not, the creation of Stormbringer and Mournblade took the combined magical might of an entire race, and one which was far more powerful than the Melniboneans to boot. Nobody, other than a Lord of Law or Chaos is going to be able to replicate that feat. :wink:

Sure enough, but those two swords had the power of gods. A minor demon should be much easier for a sorcerer to bind.

Since the very essence of Chaos of mutability, a demon can appear in any form - whether it's a tiger, a bat, a sunbeam, or a glass of water. Therefore, there's no reason why some of them can't simply manifest as a sword or a shield as their natural form. This may have been the case with Stormbringer/Mournblade.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Are you suggesting I break-out my Jefferson Airplane albums and drop a tab or two before sitting down to write the next edition...?

Basically....yeah!

I've got a load of Hawkwind albums I could lend you..... :wink:

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Since the very essence of Chaos of mutability, a demon can appear in any form - whether it's a tiger, a bat, a sunbeam, or a glass of water. Therefore, there's no reason why some of them can't simply manifest as a sword or a shield as their natural form. This may have been the case with Stormbringer/Mournblade.

I'll take your premise and run with it... Its the very fact that these beings are summoned by Chaos, or are Chaos, that makes them near impossible to bind into a static, permanent form.

That's all beside the point though, since it never happened in the saga, but there's nothing stopping you from retro-introducing demon binding from a previous version if you want.

 

[Da Boss]

I was never even convinced that the demon was ever actually bound into Stormbringer. I always felt that it was more there by choice and it just suited it to have people think it was bound.

Thats certainly the implication from some of the other novels - like the Cylons - "it had a plan"

Like John I have pretty much all the Stormbringer / Elric rpg books and use what I like from them all - and I like the Demon weapons etc

that being said I quite understand the descison to remove them in favour of staying true to the Saga.

Would it be possible to produce a S+P article that gave rules for this or would this be "out of bounds"?

@ John - re NPCs - there is a a nice thread here with some ideas (hopefully more will appear on it!?)

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41017

 

[Loz]

Would it be possible to produce a S+P article that gave rules for this or would this be "out of bounds"?

Its not an article Pete or I would write, but we couldn't (and wouldn't) stop anyone else from producing one...!

 

[Da Boss]

Would it be possible to produce a S+P article that gave rules for this or would this be "out of bounds"?

Its not an article Pete or I would write, but we couldn't (and wouldn't) stop anyone else from producing one...!

I'll put it on the list of projects "to do" then - its a long list :lol:

 

[Jarec]

I was never even convinced that the demon was ever actually bound into Stormbringer. I always felt that it was more there by choice and it just suited it to have people think it was bound.

Whether it was willingly bound or not, the creation of Stormbringer and Mournblade took the combined magical might of an entire race, and one which was far more powerful than the Melniboneans to boot. Nobody, other than a Lord of Law or Chaos is going to be able to replicate that feat. :wink:

Just because it took the entire might of a race in the attempt to bind the demon(s) doesn't mean that at the end the demon didn't choose to pretend to be bound to suit it's own ends. After all it would need to make the binding look convincing. If someone just snapped their fingers and it appeared to become bound people may have been suspicious that it was just foolin'. By making it look like it worked but was really hard people will go "Hey aren't we the man, now lets go slay some primitives with our soul drinking swords" and the swords go "fools, slushie time"

Like when your a parent and you let your kids think they can beat you at something

 

[Loz]

Its worth remembering a couple of things about the black swords.

First, they were forged, in the YK, to slay a race of gods that predate chaos.

Second, the two swords are parts of the components of the Cosmic Balance; much like the Runestaff, and thus are used as tools by both Law and Chaos.

I don't consider either Stormbringer or Mournblade to be demons or demon wepons. Certainly not products of Chaos or even Chaos sorcery. They are powers in their own right with murky agendas. So the previous post's analogy fits.

But these are unique forces.. And thus I don't hold that demons or other entities cn be bound or harnessed. The black swords don't constitute a precedent.

of course if Mike Moorcok writes a storey where Theleb K'aarna summons and binds a demon into a weapon, I'll happily alter my view!

 

[TrippyHippy]

The album you want to listen to is Hawkwind's 'Hall of the Mountain Grill' - it's the one where Morecock starts to really get involved, and it has some good tunes on it (depending on your tastes, I guess).

I'd also consider looking at some other sources - Mage: The Ascension is a different game entirely, for example, but it's kinda getting at the feel I'm talking about.

Stormbringer was originally released in about the same time as Call of Cthulhu, and my feeling was that the intent was linked insofar that both authors brought a certain philosophical bent to their writing. One of the reasons of CoC's success, in my view, was that it was effective at communicating these philosophies, despite their nihilistic aspects. Alas, I have always felt that the Morecockian world view was never quite communicated as effectively - and this is what I really want to see in the focus of any new version. It shouldn't be just another fantasy world almanack - it needs an emotional and philosophical hub.

 

[Jarec]

Chronicle of the Black Sword is the best Hawkwind album for inspiration. Especially as Morecock wrote some of it. I was luck enough to see it played live on tour in London when Mike Morecock turned up to read Elric poetry and story excerpts on stage between the tracks. There is even a video of the tour which is quite good.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I dunno. Chronicle of the Black Sword is a much later album - mid 80s - and somewhat after Hawkwind were at their musical peak in my view. It's OK, but not as freaky or funky as their earlier stuff.

Morecock was involved from the mid 70s onwards in one capacity or another, including stage performances. Warrior on the Edge of Time was a 1975 album that also featured Morecock's poetry about The Eternal Champion.