Social Status in Glorantha

[Utgardloki]

I'm preparing a campaign set in the area just south of Shadow's Dance, and my plan is to use Social Class instead of Profession for PC generation.

My plan is to have the players roll 3D6 for Social Class, which puts them on a scale from Outlaw (3) to Prince (18). But I don't have a lot of Glorantha stuff, and no chance to get more before I plan to run the game.

My impression is that the social structure for the area I choose will be somewhat like ancient Athens, with only a few classes with little difference between them. According to my sourc, the four classes in Athens were:

Thetes: who made less than 280 bushels a year, and rowed the boats during the wars.

Zeugitae: who made 280-420 bushels a year, and had their own armor.

Knights: who made 420-700 bushels a year, and rode horses.

"700 Bushel Men" who made more than 700 bushels a year, and were the aristocrats.

For Glorantha, I defined 7 levels, with "Outlaw" and "Slave" at the bottom, and "Prince" at the top. Then I made up terms for the four wealth levels. But I'm not sure what to call them. I made up terms, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea, or whether I should find English terms for them.

I also need to determine what differences, if any, there are between a villager and a tribesman, since instead of profession, I am simply having the players decide between the two backgrounds.

For starting money, I made up a formula: social status times (INT + CHA + POW) times 1d10 silver coins. In addition, the PC's background and social status provide additional starting equipment that does not need to be paid for.

Are there any thoughts for how social status should be defined, or whether I am completely off my rocker?

 

[Utgardloki]

I've written up the following instructions for my players. I'm not entirely happy with naming the various social classes, and did my best to come up with half-way decent names on the spur of the moment. My idea is that social class has a lot to do with how a person fits into society, what a person can expect, and what is expected of a person.

The instructions are as follows:

Social Status

Your social status is ranked between 3 and 18, and indicates how much wealth and influence your family has. Your starting equipment is determined by your social status and whether you are a villager or a tribesman. Your starting money is your social status times (INT + CHA + POW) times 1d10 silver coins. If your starting equipment includes armor, you can choose one or more pieces with a total value up to 10 times your social status squared.

Score Villager Status Tribesman Status
3 Outlaw Outlaw
4 Slave Slave
5-6 Zete Iwther
7-9 Theugete Foa’
10-12 Palasin Ca’ah
13-15 Shebme Shebme
16-18 Prince Prince

Outlaw Whether you are guilty, or whether you are innocent, there is a price on your head, and you are considered an outlaw. Roll 1d6: 1-3, you are an outlaw among the tribesmen, 4-5, you are an outlaw among the villagers, 6, you are an outlaw among them both. It may be possible to clear your name, somehow…

Slave You are the legal property of somebody else, of at least Palasin/Ca’ah status. You have no rights, but at least you won’t be automatically arrested just for showing up.

Zete/Iwther You are among the poorest of freemen. Your family has enough money for household expenses, with careful rationing. You get no starting equipment except for what is common and readily available, such as bowls or quarterstaffs, and you have nothing fancy or fine.

Theugete/Foa’ You have enough money that you can occasionally splurge on a luxury like meat or good clothing. Your starting equipment includes two weapons, a shield, and armor.

Palasin/Ca’ah People wish they were like you (except for the Shebme, who look down on your.) You have a comfortable life, as long as you manage your money well. A palasin’s or ca’ah’s starting equipment includes up to three weapons, a shield, and armor. A ca’ah’s starting equipment also includes a horse suitable for riding.

Shebme are the aristocrats of town. They eat the best food, wear the best clothes, and get all the best women. Your starting equipment includes a horse, up to five weapons of your choice, a shield, armor, and a wagon.

Princes have a hereditary position as a decendant of a great hero or noble. They have the same goods as a shebme (including starting equipment), but also benefit from having rank which allows them to give commands to those of lesser status. This only goes so far, and there is no provision for making somebody do what you want other than from what you yourself can enforce.

 

[simonh]

I'm preparing a campaign set in the area just south of Shadow's Dance, and my plan is to use Social Class instead of Profession for PC generation.
...
My impression is that the social structure for the area I choose will be somewhat like ancient Athens, ...

Where did you get that impression? Nothing much has been published about Shadows Dance, or the area south of it in the 2nd Age - it's not realy mentioned in "Glorantha the Second Age". I assume you mean Prax. It's an open grassland frequented by beast herder nomads from the Wastes. The northernmost part bordering Shadows dance is pretty desolate. The nearest major culture is the Empire of the Wyrm Friends in Dragon pass. their orriginal culture is Orlanthi (North european barbarian) but now they're draconised.

In the 3rd Age Dragon Pass has been recolonised by storm worshiping Nordic/Celtic barbarians again.


Simon Hibbs

 

[soltakss]

Personally, I wouldn't use fancy terms/made up names for the social classes.

The general (Third Age) Heortling classes are:
Outlaw
Thrall (Slave)
Pigsticker (Poor)
Cottar (Peasant)
Carl (Farmer)
Thane (Second-tier)
Jarl (Noble)

Of course, they use fancy names as well.

I'd go with:
Outlaw (Outside the law, a wanted man with no social class)
Slave (Property of another person)
Bonded Man (Temporary slave/bonded to a person for a limited defined period)
Freedman (Was a slave/bonded man but now free)
Freeman (Born free, never a slave/bonded man)
Noble

If you wanted to make things more complicated, introduce different levels within those categories, depending on how many fighting men they can raise, how much land they own, how much they pay in taxes and so on.

So, Noble could range from Squire to all the normal ranks of nobility, including Prince.

But, of course, these are all culture dependant. If you go to Prax, they have slave/brave/khan/elder, Malkioni have their own caste system with caste sub-divisions and so on. If your Prince went to Prax, he would be treated as no more than a brave, unless he was important to the Praxians. If he went to Dara Happa, they would treat him as an outsider, regardless of his position, unless he was on a diplomatic mission.

Technically, as Simon points out, south of Shadows Dance is either Draconic EWF Heortlings or Nomad Praxians. But, it's your game, so have whatever you want there.

 

[Adept]

Are you sure you really want to make people roll dice for this?

Why not just make characters and assign them a social status that makes sense?

 

[Utgardloki]

Thinking about this, I think I'll just ditch the names, except for Slave, Outlaw, and Prince. Instead of dividing the statuses into categories, I'll just note any free starting equipment available to the different categories, such as weapons, armor, and a horse.

As for rolling for this, I have a provision that players can swap rolls around, allowing a PC to be rich if he wishes. But I'm concerned that just allowing PCs to choose their social class will result in them all deciding to be princes.

I guess I'm basing my impression on the artwork in the 1980 edition Runequest rulebook. Except for the bikini-clad amazon on the cover (who also is being worked into the setting), the other warriors look kind of "Greekish" to me. But even so, I would not call the culture "Classical" (which is the term I use for settings resembling Greek or Roman culture).

I'm not really sure how I would describe it, which implies I should describe it well. I'm partially thinking of those cheap 1980s fantasy movies, like Beastmaster or Barbarian Queen. (After seeing Beastmaster II, I was amazed to learn that they actually made a Beastmaster III.)

The culture I imagine would be similar to Sartar. In fact, perhaps there are numbers of Sartarites colonizing the area in case the Lunars win an important battle.

 

[Adept]

As for rolling for this, I have a provision that players can swap rolls around, allowing a PC to be rich if he wishes. But I'm concerned that just allowing PCs to choose their social class will result in them all deciding to be princes.

In practise this has never been a problem. The last time I've rolled anything for a character must have been in the early nineties, and I really must say I don't miss it. Our games still aren't filled with sons of kings.

What kind of a game are you planning on running? What guidelines are there for making the characters? Is it just going to be a "roll up an adventurer, you all meet in a tavern" kind of game?

 

[simonh]

The culture I imagine would be similar to Sartar. In fact, perhaps there are numbers of Sartarites colonizing the area in case the Lunars win an important battle.

Ok, so it's a third age game.

The area has been semi-coloniused for ages, but it's aridity and vulnerability to nomad and troll raiding limits the numer and size of settlements drasticaly. It's sort of between northern Dragon Pass/Sartar and Pavis so there is some traffic. It's a wild frontier populated by desperate settlers and outlaws.

 

[Utgardloki]

What kind of a game are you planning on running? What guidelines are there for making the characters? Is it just going to be a "roll up an adventurer, you all meet in a tavern" kind of game?

I'm thinking more like the PCs happen to be in the same area, when they are all attacked by broo. And if that doesn't get them together in a team, I'll have to throw in an attractive blond lady NPC to make sure they all stay together...

 

[simonh]

I'm thinking more like the PCs happen to be in the same area, when they are all attacked by broo. And if that doesn't get them together in a team, I'll have to throw in an attractive blond lady NPC to make sure they all stay together...

Subtle.

 

[soltakss]

Thinking about this, I think I'll just ditch the names, except for Slave, Outlaw, and Prince. Instead of dividing the statuses into categories, I'll just note any free starting equipment available to the different categories, such as weapons, armor, and a horse.

And property, don't forget that. You can't carry it around with you, but it can be important.

As for rolling for this, I have a provision that players can swap rolls around, allowing a PC to be rich if he wishes. But I'm concerned that just allowing PCs to choose their social class will result in them all deciding to be princes.

If you can swap the rolls, why roll in the first place?

In any case, how many spare princes are going to be swanning around the area anyway? What is a prince, but a chief's son or relative? There might be 4 or 5 in a tribe, maybe 10 if you are generous.

When you are talking about the campaign, drop hints at the restrictive lives that princes lead, that they have to learn about dancing, reading poetry and etiquette, then talk about other social classes and the freedoms they get and very few will bother being princes.

I'm not really sure how I would describe it, which implies I should describe it well. I'm partially thinking of those cheap 1980s fantasy movies, like Beastmaster or Barbarian Queen. (After seeing Beastmaster II, I was amazed to learn that they actually made a Beastmaster III.)

The Beastmaster series was fine (long haired chap in a loincloth who could control a falcon, right?) but for true class, you have to watch the Deathstalker series. The second in the series opens with a confrontation with Deathstalker's friend and a queen/witch (I can't remember) which ends up with her shouting "I'm going to get you, and Deathstalker too" followed immediately by the film Title "Deathstalker II" - class, pure class.

They're all good for RQ ideas - Beastmaster, Deathstalker, Conan, Krull and the numerous others I can't remember.