So, the Traveller art thread is gone, too?

[MongooseMatt]

Okaaay. So I just had a couple of posts deleted here for no apparent reason.

No reason. Really?

You started attacking another poster! In a thread about threads being deleted because of antisocial behaviour, you started another fight.

You say you would have liked a PM about it. I say you should have known better.

If you want to discuss Traveller, you are more than welcome to post. If you cannot control yourself (and this goes for everyone) and feel the need to verbally abuse others, it is perhaps better you do not post.

Now, unless I am missing something, I do not think it is much to ask that this forum be reserved for discussions of Traveller, and not personal attacks.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I think what may have got me banned with reference to the critique of the cover of the spinward marches supplement is my stating the cover illustration was probably better than the content of the book.

You were banned because you make constant, repetitive posts that were a) wrong, b) rude, and c) nothing to do with Traveller.

One sarky comment would have got you a deleted post. Start filling up the forums with rubbish and you are gone.

We do not have this level of the problem in any other forum. For the love of all that is Holy, don't make newcomers to Traveller think this is what the game is about.

 

[captainjack23]

Either way I think you were phenomenally naive - given the generally antagonistic history of Traveller's community - to believe that everyone could just "get along" (especially with such lax moderation).

I'm done here. :evil:

.....um. Naive ? Lax ?

Please note, what you are condemming is the antagonistic history of perhaps a half dozen antagonistic members of traveller's thirty year fanbase; perhaps that includes me, but take ownership of your own part of it without tarring everyone who plays the game or posts here. Traveller might have a better rep if equating the whole freaking community with ones own personal bitterness wasn't such a common rationalization.

Frankly I'd say it's extremely tolerant moderation. Expecting people to rise above their personal history of strife and acrimonousness is a compement, if anything.


In any case, bye. I've greatly enjoyed our good times.

 

[Supplement Four]

Wow. Lots of flames burning here.

I started this thread, but I wanted to say I really don't give two hoots whether the original thread was deleted or not. I was curious about the "why" of it, and it seems that has been explained in this thread.

Although I am no stranger to flame wars, I prefer civility, too. I dislike censorship (and usually bristle against it), but I do think MSPRANG has a point about EDG's "tone" in his posts. I understand EDG isn't that welcome over at the CotI forum either for the same reason.

We should all be adults in how we present ourselves here (and on any other forum, for that matter). That doesn't mean you have to agree with Mongoose Traveller, or even "like" it. But, if you've got an issue, constructive criticism is the way to go. I'm certainly not what you would call "pro-MGT", but I'm not starting thread after thread to bash the game, either.

Let's just all take a breath and try to put our best foot forward from now on, shall we?

 

[rust]

Let's just all take a breath and try to put our best foot forward from now on, shall we?

This would be a most welcome change in the atmosphere on this forum.

I came here to look for informations and ideas for my own SF setting,
but many - if not most - threads on this forum seemed far more likely
to produce insults instead of results.
Therefore I left this forum a while ago, and returned to it today - and
nothing had changed, people were still shouting instead of listening,
exchanging insults instead of opinions and ideas.

Perhaps we could really try to discuss Traveller from now on, at least
now and then ?

 

[AKAramis]

Although I am no stranger to flame wars, I prefer civility, too. I dislike censorship (and usually bristle against it), but I do think MSPRANG has a point about EDG's "tone" in his posts. I understand EDG isn't that welcome over at the CotI forum either for the same reason.

You understand wrong, if speaking of the official reasons Hunter has said repeatedly he is welcome back. (For the rest: I'm one of the mods, there.)

Matthew:
it is extremely naive to expect people to intuit from disappeared threads what, if any, personal contribution there has been to their demise. Locking them for a week before deletion would serve very much the same purpose, and also allow learning from the mistakes.

It is also extremely naive to presume a new edition will not draw a bunch of old codgers to the boards, with their traditional baggage, including bringing all the old flame-war topics (Lesbian Aslan, anyone? Near-C Rocks?), especially given the 15+ years of flamewars. Moderation needs to be tight and instructive on COTI. I'm told it is similar on SJG's GT boards.

Traveller, unlike the other properties you've published, has a vocal, significant and lively community which has been at odds with itself for more than 20 years. Before the internet, WWIV-Net subs bristled with heated debates on Traveller: Bk2 vs Bk5, Bk2 vs Bk7.

Glorantha has a small but vocal following; your Runequest is not terribly much "Glorantha" and very much more "Generic Engine with some Glorantha left in"... a fairly popular mode for many old RQ players (including me; I never actually ran in Glorantha with RQ3). And that group of serious Glorantha fans does get heated, but has recourse to Greg, who is proactive and net savvy.

Traveller, however, has Marc, who isn't so net savvy, and has always been remote, and at times, completely barred from development processes of new traveller product. He seldom posts on why, and does not provide "canon" answers to anyone not in his inner circle. And with now 9 competing editions (CT, MT, TNE, T4, T5, GT, T20, HT, MoT), all of which are currently purchasable (CT, MT, TNE, T4, T5 electronically, GT, HT, & T20 both dead tree and electronic, and MoTrav also Dead Tree and Electronic promised), there is a lot of argument. Even about the canonicity of several of the rulesets.

Further, you went to an open public playtest. Yet again naive to expect a non-heated debate to rage, considering system mechanics flame wars dot the 20+ year net history of Traveller... raging infernos in 1996...

I've liked most of what I've seen. It has promise. But neing naive about the sharp divisions in the Traveller fanbase is no aid to anyone. Not letting people know why is also no aid.

 

[Supplement Four]

You understand wrong, if speaking of the official reasons Hunter has said repeatedly he is welcome back.

Just FYI...I've seen Hunter's posts about it. I was referring to the CotI people I've spoken to. I've never spoken with EDG (to my knowledge) before this forum, and some CotI posters warned me about him--and how they're glad he doesn't come over to the CotI anymore.

Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about Hunter's position (and I know Hunter has had his flame fests with EDG too.).

 

[captainjack23]

I've liked most of what I've seen. It has promise. But neing naive about the sharp divisions in the Traveller fanbase is no aid to anyone. Not letting people know why is also no aid.

Aramis, I don't want this to turn into an argument, but I do have some thoughts in this matter, and being a well known bore, feel a need to share them....

I'll start by saying that in general, I do believe that an education model of administration is best...but that it takes lots of time and effort...both to follow the threads and to keep from getting dragged in. Not every board has the resources to dedicate to this level of support -and it is a level of support that requires constant interaction with the most clueless or annoying people; or trolls.


My view is that feedback is a privilege, not a right; adults really are responsible for their own behavior. Its nice to think that a nice parent is available to gently consquence and educate us, but the reality is that that takes a level of comittment and effort that is very hard to justify or maintain except in actual close relationships; where it happens, it's a favor, and one that takes resources and time away from productivity and generally important (or at least mandatory) business foo.

Plus, it's often unappreciated....my observation is that the bans and irate quits thus far involved people with lots of experience on boards, lots of experience with getting booted, censured,lectured, argued with etc. And are still problems. And are generally doing damage the whole time they are being educated. So it has a very high liklihood of ending up in a boot, regardless.

The easiest solution is generally boot or edit and move on. It may or may not be fair, but that isn't really a fundimental right in life (IMHO).
Plus, it's quite fair to those uninvolved...they get to move on and enjoy a flame free board. Again, the issue is, do you commit your attention and resources to the problem members or to the non-problem members ?

If you don't police yourself, you're lucky if someone else does it fairly and nicely. Useually, once you step out of the realm of family and close friends, you'll usually be policed efficiently- and efficiently with reagrd to the admins needs.


Collateral damage can occur -as with deleted threads....but well....thats a shame, and that's about it. If the moderation isn;t insane, you'll be able to repost and carry on without deletion if it really wasn't the cause. If it is ? Well, learn or move on.

 

[captainjack23]

Traveller, unlike the other properties you've published, has a vocal, significant and lively community which has been at odds with itself for more than 20 years. Before the internet, WWIV-Net subs bristled with heated debates on Traveller: Bk2 vs Bk5, Bk2 vs Bk7.

<snip>

Further, you went to an open public playtest. Yet again naive to expect a non-heated debate to rage, considering system mechanics flame wars dot the 20+ year net history of Traveller... raging infernos in 1996...
<snip>
But neing naive about the sharp divisions in the Traveller fanbase is no aid to anyone.

Expecting people to rise above their history isn't naive, it is idealistic at worst. At best, it's being given the opportunity to act as a self-responsible adult, and to move on from old grudges and arguments. You know, to experience Growth.

That said, there are two things that bother me about the assumption that one should expect antisocial behavior in the Traveller fanbase.

Note that these are my own personal opinions, and while pompous and overblown, are really not meant as pronouncements of anything more than how I think the world runs. YMMV.

The first is that the actions of a few define the attitudes of the fanbase. Most of the problems here and elsewhere are casued a a fairly small set of posters who get in trouble time and time again on all manner of forums. Allowing their behavior to define the personality of the fanbase is absurd, lazy and destructive. If you want to say that traveller, being one of the oldest RPG communities in existence has had more than enough time to accumulate a lerger number of jerks than most communities, I'm okay with that...but assuming part of the label of being a backbiting fractous flamer is not something I want or appreciate.

The second issue is the implicit belief that the past justifies or excuses the behavior of the present.
It doesn't. It may explain it, and it does predict it, but it is entirely up to each person as to weather they let it rule their behavior. If traveller is seen as a bitter collection of grognards, it is likely apartly becasue of the pernicious assumption that little better can be expected; which is vast disservice to us all. We all were two and three year olds with unspeakable behavioral patterns, and yet we are expected (and required) to act differently as adults. That several people seem to have retained said personalities may well explain their behavior, but it does not excuse mine.


[phew]

Okay, I think that's off my chest.

Please keep in mind that obviously, none of this applies to me. I am a paragon of consistency and in all ways unwaveringly live up to my own high expectations....and where I do argue, I do it reasonably, and only because its not my damn fault: I'm being forced to do it by HIM AND HIM AND HER AND EVERYBODY ELSE BEING IDIOTS AND TROLLS AND WRONG AND BROKEN AND BAD BAD BAD !!!!

:wink:

 

[MJD]

Deleting a thread seems to me to be a fairly time-efficient way of getting rid of contnet the board owners don't think is appropriate to their forum. Call it censorship if you will (I'm not getting into that one), it's their right as the people who pay for the boards.

The Mongoose staff are here to produce games, not to spend their time explaining exactly why they've done a particular thing on a board - nobody is paying them to do that.

Theres been a lot of shouting and arm-waving, much of it nothing to do with Traveller, and when new folks come to look at the forum for their game that's the impression they'll get. Now maybe a significant part of the existing Traveller commuity is like that but I don't imagine Mongoose wan that sort of thing associated with thier game.

After all, they're a publishing company and they're hardly going to want stuff on their own site that might harm sales, however slightly. A quick delete is the most efficient way to deal with that and get bqck to work.

I'm not commenting on courtesy or expectations or anything here... I'm just pointing out the likely reason why.

OBTRAV: 'Everything is driven by economics'

 

[MJD]

From a quoted reference reference above, I've made an inference....

Somebody who seems not to like the Spinward Marches cover says the cover is likely to be better than the contents. Speaking as someone who just spent many, many hours creating those contents, which this commentator has never seen, I find that rather insulting. Not to mention odd.

This person isn't even judging a book by it's cover; he's judging it by what he thinks might be inside. It's like that Tai Chi guy who told me that he didn't need to see my Ju-Jitsu class to know what I was doing wrong...

 

[captainjack23]

From a quoted reference reference above, I've made an inference....

Somebody who seems not to like the Spinward Marches cover says the cover is likely to be better than the contents. Speaking as someone who just spent many, many hours creating those contents, which this commentator has never seen, I find that rather insulting. Not to mention odd.

This person isn't even judging a book by it's cover; he's judging it by what he thinks might be inside. It's like that Tai Chi guy who told me that he didn't need to see my Ju-Jitsu class to know what I was doing wrong...

Ah, yes. I had to look back to find that. Vodoobedoo or something. you neednt worry too much about that particular opinion -1. he's currently banned, and 2. As politely as possible, his posts often seemed like confused stream-of- consciousness with freshman economics or art studies thrown in ; or he was trolling.

besides. I thought you said your cat was unimpressed by the content ?
:wink: :wink: :wink:

 

[GamerDude]

I haven't seen the insides of the MGT Spinward Marches so I have no idea whats inside. I'm still gonna get it when it comes out even though I don't like the cover.

 

[MJD]

Yeah, my cat remains unimpressed. She slept on my desk pretty much through the entire writing process and never once helped out.

 

[rust]

Never underestimate a cat. While you thought that she was asleep, she
doubtless used her telepathic ability to provide you with the necessary
guidance to make your writing a true work of art. Cats are like that.

 

[MJD]

Cats *claim* to be like that...

 

[Jame Rowe]

Yeah, my cat remains unimpressed. She slept on my desk pretty much through the entire writing process and never once helped out.

You writer you! Don't you know that you're just there to feed the cat, change her litterbox and keep her company once in a while? Other than that she doesn't need you! :wink:

 

[MJD]

You're not wrong.

 

[Jame Rowe]

You're not wrong.

Which doesn't say I'm right...

 

[aethelwulf22]

From flame war to cats in one easy step...although I think I preferred the flame war :wink: