So I was wrong about grappling

[DrSkull]

After all the biching and moaning I did last week about grappling, I must admit, that once I did a grapple-palooza it all sort of fell into place for me now.

I had 41 grapple-crazy worms-of-the-earth type snake men on a giant grapple-rama against 7 PC's. It really worked out okay.

THe opposed rolls and the touch atack to hit worked just fine after all. I guess the rather limited use of grappling I had done before had left me cold, but once everything got pounded into my head from actual use, it was okay.

Last week's discussion did however lead to the ruling that Grappling damage ignores armor DR, which was absolutely essential to running the combat. That is a must-keep rule.

We had to make some ad hoc rulings about what one's DV was vs. someone who is in a grapple with you and is attempting to stab you with a dagger.

Also, I did end up ruling that you could CLEAVE with a grapple attack (pick up grapple target A and use him to crush grapple target B)

 

[GhostWolf69]

After all the biching and moaning I did last week about grappling, I must admit, that once I did a grapple-palooza it all sort of fell into place for me now.

I had 41 grapple-crazy worms-of-the-earth type snake men on a giant grapple-rama against 7 PC's. It really worked out okay.

Are you telling me you actually PLAY TESTED some rules???

My god.... :shock: I... ...no :shock:

I thought we just bickered and argued about them and changed they back and forth trying to make houserules out of thin air.

Actually TRYING some rules out... man... new concept... blows my mind.

/wolf

 

[DrSkull]

I said I was wrong, you don't have to rub it in.

 

[BhilJhoanz]

May I insert a related rules question here?

When a foe and an ally are engaged in a grapple -- what are their effective DV's against those outside of the grapple?

Example:
You are engaged in a grapple. You normal DVs are:
Parry +5 (base) +3 (str) = 18
Dodge +4(base) +2 (dex) = 16

What are your dodge and parry options against the person you're grappling?
What are your dodge and parry options against attacks from non-grapplers?

==========================================
Let me add that one of the amazing things that differentiates Conan from D&D is the fact that you aren't walking around with one killer weapon that you attack with every time. In a fight this weekend, I used my warspear, my axe (melee), a bullrush, a grapple and my axe (thrown)! As circumstances changed, I altered my strategies without losing the "+3 magic magic enhancement +1d6 fire damage" that I might be otherwise lose in a D&D oriented combat -- and I loved it.

 

[DrSkull]

THat was the ad hoc area we were working out.

We decided that you were your normal DV against someone with whom you were in a grapple who tried to stab you, but you were DV10 against someone trying to stab you who was outside the grapple (and we made lots of mistakes and so forth in the process I imagine).

 

[BhilJhoanz]

I take it you found no rule to confirm this either . . .

I agree in the normal DV Grappler vs Grappler. But a flatfooted DV for external attacks seems rather extreme -- you aren't unaware of your opponents and should be able to react in some way to them.

I believe using the rules as written is best until it is found to be unbalancing -- so a grappled opponent attacked by a non grappler simply loses his Dex bonus to his Dodge DV but can still make a full parry (if armed of course).

Hmmm . . . considering the weapon restrictions involved in a grapple, maybe you should only be allowed to parry if your weapon is light? (there I go making a house rule!)
=======================================

BTW, I agree that Grappling damage ignores armor DR.

Also, I did end up ruling that you could CLEAVE with a grapple attack (pick up grapple target A and use him to crush grapple target B)

Nice! I love GM rule overrides when a manuver is clever, flashy and effective!

Anything else come out of your session?

 

[Yokiboy]

When a foe and an ally are engaged in a grapple -- what are their effective DV's against those outside of the grapple?

Example:
You are engaged in a grapple. You normal DVs are:
Parry +5 (base) +3 (str) = 18
Dodge +4(base) +2 (dex) = 16

What are your dodge and parry options against the person you're grappling?
What are your dodge and parry options against attacks from non-grapplers?

Mongoose Bob has confirmed that Parries aren't allowed versus non-grappling opponents, so therefore that's out.

When it comes to your Dodge DV I've ruled myself that you retain only BPB or BDB to DV, no Shield Bonus as Parrying doesn't work. The problem starts if you're prone, when your Dodge DV is modified further; Melee DV –4; Dodge Ranged DV +4. To me it would be easier to disregard the Prone thing and treat all grapplers as Flat-Footed, DV 10.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[BhilJhoanz]

Great info . . . thanks!

Mongoose Bob has confirmed that Parries aren't allowed versus non-grappling opponents, so therefore that's out.

Re: this and the War Spear errata -- what thread are you getting this from? I didn't find it in the FAQ . . .

 

[wyerdo]

Mongoose Bob has confirmed that Parries aren't allowed versus non-grappling opponents, so therefore that's out.

What about the "human shield" combat maneuver. Doesn't that count as a parry?

 

[argo]

May I insert a related rules question here?

When a foe and an ally are engaged in a grapple -- what are their effective DV's against those outside of the grapple?

Example:
You are engaged in a grapple. You normal DVs are:
Parry +5 (base) +3 (str) = 18
Dodge +4(base) +2 (dex) = 16

Here are my house rules concerning grappling and DV. They differ from Mongoose Bob's rulings, but by now we all know that I have issues with his rulings re: loosing your Dex

When you are grappling you keep your full normal DV versus your grappling opponent and may choose to dodge or parry his attacks as normal. So the guy in your example would have Parry 18, Dodge 16.

When you are grappling and are attacked by someone not in the grapple you may only dodge, not parry, and you are impaired meaning you loose your ability bonus to DV and any "named dodge" bonuses such as from feats but keep your BDB. You are also vulneurable to sneak attacks. (applying the impaired condition is where Mongoose Bob and I differ). So the example character can't parry and has Dodge 14.

End house rules

Fruthermore, if you are pinned you suffer all the penalties for being grappled plus you take a further -4 penalty to DV against opponents not part of the grapple. So the example character has Dodge 14 -4 = 10

Lastly, a character not engaged in a grapple can make a melee attack against a character in a grapple with no miss-chance (or at least no miss chance due to the grapple, they could be grappling in thick fog for all I know) However a ranged attack against a grappling opponent rolls randomly to see which grappler it actually targets.

Also! Don't forget about the combat manouvers Fling Aside and Human Shield. (Human Shield being the exception to the rule that you cannot Parry while grappling) Those are two of the most awsome manouvers in the game; right after To the Hilt and Cat's Parry and ... aw who am I kidding, they're all awsome :wink:

Let me add that one of the amazing things that differentiates Conan from D&D is the fact that you aren't walking around with one killer weapon that you attack with every time. In a fight this weekend, I used my warspear, my axe (melee), a bullrush, a grapple and my axe (thrown)! As circumstances changed, I altered my strategies without losing the "+3 magic magic enhancement +1d6 fire damage" that I might be otherwise lose in a D&D oriented combat -- and I loved it.

Amen brother, amen. [/b]

 

[LoneStranger]

Hey DrSkull, the guy who was in shock that something that was batted about on here was actually put into use was jokin with ya. He wasn't trying to rub anything in or make you look bad or anything. Actually I'm sure there are quite a few people that are surprised at the fact that something people talked about in here was put into use (much like I am).

 

[S'mon]

Re grappling - my Midnight GM pointed out to me last Thursday the 3.5 PHB footnote that says Pinned characters are DEX 0, as well as -4 AC - if you apply that to Conan it means all Pinned characters are DV 1 rather than DV 6 - NASTY. :twisted:

See 3.5 PHB pg 151, top right "Armor Class Modifiers" table.

 

[GhostWolf69]

Hey DrSkull, the guy who was in shock that something that was batted about on here was actually put into use was jokin with ya. He wasn't trying to rub anything in or make you look bad or anything. Actually I'm sure there are quite a few people that are surprised at the fact that something people talked about in here was put into use (much like I am).

Correct. It was a jest. I whine and moan about rules as much as any one, and I playtest just as little as can be expected. So it was a joke in recognition of my own behavior.

...sad I have to point it out... kinda ruins the joke...

/wolf

 

[DrSkull]

It was mock shame and hurt on my part too. I got the joke. I suppose I should learn to use emoticons or something.

 

[GhostWolf69]

It was mock shame and hurt on my part too. I got the joke. I suppose I should learn to use emoticons or something.

Probably... :wink:

/wolf

 

[Elaith the Serpant]

Yeah i love grappling, theres nothingmore satisfying than pulling the armour bound nobles down from their horse with a bunch of picts because he ran ahead.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, Dr. Skull let me say I had one hell of a fun time on Sunday. A couple of things though, I didnt want to bring them up on Sunday cause I didnt want to "chuck" ourselves. First I dont think that cleave should work with grapple. I am probably very wrong. Second, another things that was forgotten, or left out or i am crazy, was the rule about more than one attacker in around against the same person. We should have dropped alot faster Kind of glad we didn't though. Thats all for now, great game on sunday! P.s Dr I was hoping to run a one shot adventure in the future just something fun, NO TPK, and humorous!!

 

[DrSkull]

I think the grapple cleave only happened once, and I just thought "what the hell". The multiple attacker/piling on thing really wouldn't have made much difference, since the way you were standing you only were attacked by 2 enemies each round, so one of them might have gotten a +1 to the melee touch attack, I don't know how much difference it would have made since the important roll is the opposed grapple check.

I don't know about you running. Remember, you are on double secret probation for not producing a Log during Space Bastards. We'll have to have a special conclave of luminaries to grant you special permisson to get behind the screen again. Besides the fact that you kill everyone right and left every time; I know I won't play unless I have a signifcant reserve of Fate Points.

 

[Anonymous]

I can make you two promises.

1. It will be a humorous advent. If ANYONE dies, or even has to use a fate point, it will be their own fault

2. The Log will be in the next day!

 

[DrSkull]

THrow in lots and lots of spiders to torment Marlon and you've got a deal. I don't know when we'll fit you in since Andrew and I already have some plans, but we'll do it.