So how big is a Starship missile?

[Dracous]

I am doomed to always be thinking constantly about the Traveller universe and how the various rules fit together.

My latest thinking has been about the starship missile. in particular, just how big are they?

I came up with the following, but I wold be interested in your thoughts.

First, that facts according to Mongoose Traveller. (Includes High Guard)

• Missiles are capable of thrust 10, with the turns to impact on page 147 halved (rounded up). However, missiles have limited endurance of 60 minutes (10 turns) before they run out of fuel
• 12 missiles can be stored in 1 displacement ton. (which means a missile is less than or equal to 1/12 of a dton)
• A 50 dton bay launches 12 missiles at a time
• A 100 dton bay launches 24 missiles at a time
• The Torpedo or heavy missile size is listed as 2.5 tons.
• Two torpedoes can fit into a barbette.
• A 50 ton torpedo bay launches 3 heavy missiles at a time
• A 100 ton torpedo bay launches 6 heavy missiles at a time.

1/12 of a dton is a volume of 1.16 cubic metres. Making the missile smaller than that would allow for a magazine to include space for loading mechanisms, cabinets, etc)

To that end, the following estimates for the specification would be acceptable

• Length: 2.5 m
• Diameter: 0.65 m
• Volume: 0.829 cubic metres
• Mass: 829Kg

This sort of size makes sense to me.

 

[sideranautae]

My latest thinking has been about the starship missile. in particular, just how big are they?

First, that facts according to Mongoose Traveller. (Includes High Guard)

• Missiles are capable of thrust 10, with the turns to impact on page 147 halved (rounded up). However, missiles have limited endurance of 60 minutes (10 turns) before they run out of fuel
• 12 missiles can be stored in 1 displacement ton. (which means a missile is less than or equal to 1/12 of a dton)

• 
  
  AND, they are supposedly TL 7? Ergo, the specs as given are completely wrong. At TL 7, to have that performance envelope, they would have to be frigging HUGE.
  
  Which is why I dumped them and only have much larger Torp's.

 

[phavoc]

Missiles are relatively tiny things. Then again so is an Exocet.

I think one of (the many) problems with missiles is that they are all over the map. They are available relatively early in the tech tree, but really gain no benefit as TL increases. It makes the gaming part very easy to deal with (missile, 1ea, 1D damage, 10 turns endurance), but doesn't naturally lend itself to other aspects of the game.

I keep coming back to the concept that Traveller ships and combat are really a reflection of early 20th century naval things, with early aviation tossed in for good measure. A missile is about as powerful as a 5" gun, and put some armor on your ship and you can shrug them off. But the analogy only goes so far, and breaks fairly quickly, so I don't tend to dwell on that too much.

It would be nice to see the High Guard side of the design spectrum to really reflect naval combat, not just a slightly larger version of the core book rules. If we consider how historically certain ships essentially broke the existing standards and radically altered naval designs and technology in our own history, one would think that we'd see something similar in the future, eh? Especially since our future is filled with a lot of people just like us!

I had picked up a book recently, Warships Inside and Out, by Robert Jackson. It's very interesting and informative. Things like:

The French Gloire being the first armored ship-of-the-line which set off a new naval arms race with the British. The British answered with the Warrior a few years later, which was superior in just about every way.

The Dreadnought, which overnight rendered all previous battleships obsolete with her single caliber big-gun armament (and she herself would be obsolete in only a few years).

The Lion, the first of the battlecruisers. Sadly naval staffs never understood the idea that pitting a battlecruiser against a battleship was a bad idea, until they started sinking of course.

Many more fine ships were launched in the period between WW1 and WW2. The aircraft and later the missile, made the big gun ships obsolete. Though that isn't the case in Traveller, which is why I like to go back to the days of big-gun ships and armor being the deciding factors in naval engagements.

 

[DivineWrath]

I was considering making a new thread on a related topic. I was considering writing rules on designing your own missiles, much like how you could design your own ships.

One of the things that needed to be done for these rules was to figure out how big the missiles and torpedoes were, and how the space was used. In doing so, I found that the size of a missile was about 0.083 tons, while a torpedo was 2.5 tons. This means that a torpedo is over 25 times the size of a missile. However, the damage done by a basic torpedo is about 4 times as much as a basic missile. I've been left wondering why is there such a difference. Was this due to someone not doing their homework, or was something else going on?

Traveller is a period sci-fi game, so I can understand if making realistic missiles would break the immersion. However, I would like to be able to do something in the game non the less.

 

[sideranautae]

This means that a torpedo is over 25 times the size of a missile. However, the damage done by a basic torpedo is about 4 times as much as a basic missile. I've been left wondering why is there such a difference. Was this due to someone not doing their homework, or was something else going on?

This comes from NO homework being done at all. It is called laziness.

 

[phavoc]

I was considering making a new thread on a related topic. I was considering writing rules on designing your own missiles, much like how you could design your own ships.

Look on the web for Special Supplement 3 - Missiles from the early classic Traveller days. It's also on the Classic Traveller CD you can get from Far Future Enterprises. It's probably more detail than you are looking for.

There are also some threads here on the board in regards to missiles. It's been a topic that has been gone over many times. LOTS of useful ideas to be mined, including varying sizes of missiles, adding in more damage based on TL of missile (I use a +1 dmg modifier per TL of missile, so a TL-15 one does 1D6 +6 to reflect enhancements in minatureaurization and explosives - but it can complicate the game by having to keep track of your missile TL's), etc.

One of the things that needed to be done for these rules was to figure out how big the missiles and torpedoes were, and how the space was used. In doing so, I found that the size of a missile was about 0.083 tons, while a torpedo was 2.5 tons. This means that a torpedo is over 25 times the size of a missile. However, the damage done by a basic torpedo is about 4 times as much as a basic missile. I've been left wondering why is there such a difference. Was this due to someone not doing their homework, or was something else going on?

Traveller is a period sci-fi game, so I can understand if making realistic missiles would break the immersion. However, I would like to be able to do something in the game non the less.

That's been a historical problem in Traveller. Additional things and idea were bolted onto the original model, but they didn't always make sense. And as different publishers took up the mantle of Traveller they carried forward some of these broken ideas. The counter-argument to that is that Traveller has never been about strong space combat, so it "shouldn't matter". There is some logic to that, but I think a lot of players do enjoy game mechanics that flow, make sense, and still make the game fun. It is ALWAYS a balancing act to make all three of those fit well together.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

One of the old 'Challenge' magazines from GDW has an article for designing missiles (for 2300 AD... but probably a start by checking against the MGT 2300AD).

 

[phavoc]

One of the old 'Challenge' magazines from GDW has an article for designing missiles (for 2300 AD... but probably a start by checking against the MGT 2300AD).

The article in question is called "The Anatomy of a Missile", by Karl Bergman. It's in issue 36. It's a fairly detailed article on how to build stutterwarp missiles. I would say the 2300 article is as detailed as the Supplement 3 article. Though, like most Traveller things, Supplement 3 used a LOT of tables and the 2300 one is more formulaic.

I dug this up off the web. It's an Excel spreadsheet to design missiles using Supplement 3, Mayday and some other stuff from JTAS (at least that's what they say).

http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/maint.htm#A%20Plea%20for%20Help

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I believe there was another one on building space mines too.

 

[phavoc]

I believe there was another one on building space mines too.

Ah, yes, it was in issue 40, also by Bergman.

I was fortunate (lucky?) that a roommate had all of the Challenge magazines and was moving out and and decided he didn't want them any more. They were all in mint condition, in sleeves even!

Yoink!

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I just have old, yellowing photocopies. I never used to buy 'Challenge' as it was too full of OTU, but used to copy a friends when it had 2300 AD articles.

 

[Infojunky]

I was fortunate (lucky?) that a roommate had all of the Challenge magazines and was moving out and and decided he didn't want them any more. They were all in mint condition, in sleeves even!

Not sure the sleeves would have protected mine from the parade of 3 year olds who like to see what was in Dad's boxes, I still have a complete collection sans covers in a lot of cases. I keep meaning to take them to a Traveller/SF swap meet and see if someone wants them, there is a complete run of Travellers digest in there as well....

 

[Infojunky]

I was considering making a new thread on a related topic. I was considering writing rules on designing your own missiles, much like how you could design your own ships.

Look on the web for Special Supplement 3 - Missiles from the early classic Traveller days. It's also on the Classic Traveller CD you can get from Far Future Enterprises. It's probably more detail than you are looking for.

I keep meaning to bash that one around for MgT. My quick and dirty bit hack is to tack the number of hits for each type of warhead and convert it to dice. (i.e. 10kg HE = 2 hits, 10kg of Focused Force = 4 hits, such that He = 2d6, Focused Force = 4d6, etc..etc...).

Traveller is a period sci-fi game, so I can understand if making realistic missiles would break the immersion. However, I would like to be able to do something in the game non the less.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

That's been a historical problem in Traveller. Additional things and idea were bolted onto the original model, but they didn't always make sense. And as different publishers took up the mantle of Traveller they carried forward some of these broken ideas. The counter-argument to that is that Traveller has never been about strong space combat, so it "shouldn't matter". There is some logic to that, but I think a lot of players do enjoy game mechanics that flow, make sense, and still make the game fun. It is ALWAYS a balancing act to make all three of those fit well together.

You need to think of Traveller as a Gooney Bird (Douglas C-47) she'll fly with parts missing, she'll fly with parts bolted on backwards, she'll fly. Sometimes is takes several tries to get the parts you think you need to work, but there is a way. The Traditional way is to steal from all the associated games the mechanics you needed. That is actually one of the weaknesses with MgT is there isn't the parallel non-rpg development going on producing mechanically compatible bits. CT had at least 3 different ground combat systems, 4 different and mutually incompatible space combat systems.

Crap! Well that went out into Left field fast, So the question is How do we fix missiles

When it becomes my turn to run traveller again I am going to use my quick and dirty from above with some development. I may look at MayDay for some guidance as well as the proto Missile construction system is in there.

 

[DivineWrath]

Ok thanks. I'll keep this stuff in mind. I'll go try to look for material already written and try to keep an eye out for broken stuff.

Traveller is a period sci-fi game, so I can understand if making realistic missiles would break the immersion. However, I would like to be able to do something in the game non the less.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

What I was trying to say was, that the appeal of this game isn't that it is a sci-fi game, but rather what kind of game it was. I mean in the sort of way how a game of star wars, giant mecha, or an anime like game, may or may not care strongly about science, and would favor certain play styles. It is very much a game where the characters travel through the stars (and may own a ship to do that) and go on adventures. If there was too much realism, then you couldn't travel through the stars, and high technology would prevent adventures.