Sniper Borderers

[Voltumna]

Say we have a sniper who is a borderer, and he has the Ambush feat that allows him to take a full round worht of actions in a surprise round if his enemies are unaware of him.

Since the sniper has the Ambush feat, any time the sniper has an unaware enemy or enemies within range and sight, he can make a full attack worth of surprise attacks.

Have some doubths on the following, can you comment please?

1. Since the target or targets are being ambushed (surprised), when would they be able to make a spot chek to locate the sniper? I understand that in a surprise round, surprised characters don't get to act at all, and you can usually take only partial actions if on advantage, so my guess is they can't make the spot check on the surprise round, but until the next round, which would usually be the 1st combat round.

2. After the surprise round I think initiative is in order, even if no actual combat follows. The initiative would be rolled to see who goes first, the sniper to hide again, or the targets to spot him. If the sniper wins initiative, he can make a hide check as a move action before the targets make their own checks. The snipers makes the hide check at a -20 though because he just attacked.

3. As long as he remains undetected he can use Ambush.

Borderers are masters of their terrains, and almost like wizards there. When they have a favoured terrian +3 or +5 bonus, they are able to hide when no cover or concealment is available, and even while being observed, so that makes them more elussive. The -20 to hide after sniping is pretty harsh, but you could take feats to overcome that, and the borderer's terrain already compensates a little. Whith sufficient feats and abilities you would end with a positive bonus to hide. And multiclassing with thief or soldier could add a few good tricks.

 

[urdinaran]

Actually, you do not need to use an action to Spot something in a reactive manner. Trying to Spot something that you missed the first time costs a move action. Of course, there is a -1 penalty to a Spot check for every 10' of distance; so trying to Spot a sniper firing from 120' away would cause a -12 to the roll.

After the firing started, common sense would give any character a general direction where the sniper is firing from; maybe not the exact location, but at least the quadrant they are in.

 

[Voltumna]

Actually, you do not need to use an action to Spot something in a reactive manner. Trying to Spot something that you missed the first time costs a move action.

So it is a move action or not? One of the questions is if that spot check can be attempted on the surprise round? Then if that particular spot check has to be made as a move action, you do it until your initiative count? I think timing is important for this kind of maneuver, so who can do what on which round, either the surprise or next round is relevant. If a sniper didn't have a good chance of hiding after taking a full attack on a surprise round (by winning initiative) then he would be better off just taking one shot and hiding as a move action on the surprise attack.

Then he could relocate as well, which would take time in which he wouldn't attack, so next round attacks would be comming from a different and unexpected location.

 

[argo]

1. Since the target or targets are being ambushed (surprised), when would they be able to make a spot chek to locate the sniper? I understand that in a surprise round, surprised characters don't get to act at all, and you can usually take only partial actions if on advantage, so my guess is they can't make the spot check on the surprise round, but until the next round, which would usually be the 1st combat round.

You make a spot check as an opposed check to a hide check every time the sniper makes a hide check. In addition, you may choose to use a move action to make an "active" spot check against the same hide check.

Exactly how many hide checks the sniper needs to make is a GM judgment call and depends on how close he wants to get to the enemy before starting combat. Its probably best to just have him make one hide check each time he moves his location. If someone makes their spot check before he decides to open fire then that person has seen him and gets to roll initative and act in the suprise round. If everyone spots him then there is no suprise round, go dierect to the first regular round.

You are correct that suprised characters don't act in the suprise round so they cant use a move action to spot until the first regular round but they still get to make their opposed spot checks when the sniper makes his check at -20 to stay hidden.

2. After the surprise round I think initiative is in order, even if no actual combat follows. The initiative would be rolled to see who goes first, the sniper to hide again, or the targets to spot him. If the sniper wins initiative, he can make a hide check as a move action before the targets make their own checks. The snipers makes the hide check at a -20 though because he just attacked.

Actually, he gets to make the check (with -20 penalty) immediately after the attack to see if he remains hidden.

3. As long as he remains undetected he can use Ambush.

I don't remember this feat offhand, but there is only one suprise round per combat so if the feat lets you take a full-round of attacks as a suprise round then you can only use it once per combat.


Later.

 

[Oly]

OK here's my understanding of the rules....

There is only ever one surprise round per combat, therefore the ambush feat can only be used once in any combat.

Hiding after a ranged attack takes a move action. Therefore if the sniper wishes to try to remain hidden he'll have to take a move action to hide immediately after his single attack, no full attack. If he doesn’t then he's exposed. What happens because of that depends on your take on the rules, I don't think they're are truly explicit on this. As urdinaran claims spot is reactive and characters in D20 have no facing, therefore if the sniper doesn't hide I think he's been seen. I think that I agree with that understanding. On his next turn the sniper may then try and move away (which can be combined with a hide roll) but his targets will know where he started from.

Therefore I see a clever use of the sniping feat to be to pop up and take a single shot and then to hide. If the hide's successful then just melt away ending the combat. Later on sneak back in and do it again, multiple combats, multiple surprise rounds and multiple uses of the ambush feat. That would really nibble away at the enemy and leave them feeling really frustrated. It's a shame that track isn't some kind of opposed role so you could really just vanish into the woods if you knew what you were doing.

I'm reading the Conan Pict stories right now and this just fits in so well with them. A question though, which book is the Ambush feat in?

 

[Voltumna]

You are correct that suprised characters don't act in the suprise round so they cant use a move action to spot until the first regular round but they still get to make their opposed spot checks when the sniper makes his check at -20 to stay hidden.

This is not stated anywhere, but would you penalize the spot checks for being surprised?

I don't remember this feat offhand, but there is only one suprise round per combat so if the feat lets you take a full-round of attacks as a suprise round then you can only use it once per combat.

I don't have the book right now, and I am refering to the version of this feat that comes in H's Fiercerst. I just remember the part where it says you can take a full round of actions during a surprise attack, but I think it says as long as they are unaware of you.

 

[Voltumna]

Therefore I see a clever use of the sniping feat to be to pop up and take a single shot and then to hide. If the hide's successful then just melt away ending the combat. Later on sneak back in and do it again, multiple combats, multiple surprise rounds and multiple uses of the ambush feat. That would really nibble away at the enemy and leave them feeling really frustrated. It's a shame that track isn't some kind of opposed role so you could really just vanish into the woods if you knew what you were doing.

I'm reading the Conan Pict stories right now and this just fits in so well with them. A question though, which book is the Ambush feat in?

That's a good tactic. You can hide your tracks moving slower. Again, I don't have the books at hand to say how slow, but since borderers get a movement bobus in their terrains, they wouldn't move as slow as other characters. And tracking characters also have to move slower so they are not penalized, unless they have the swift tracker ability. So the sniper could again have the edge to relocate hiding his tracks and moving faster than usual given the circumstances.

The version fo the feat I refer to is in Hyboria's Fiercest or Fallen, one of those two. There is one in ATR, but that one only gave you an aditional move or standard action in a surprise round. The new version allows you to take a full round action, which mean you could take a full attack.

There is also a feat from Shadizar, Leave no witnesses, that allows you to take a AOO when someone spots you and you are trying to hide. The AOO can be a ranged sneak attack, so it would be a good feat for a sniper as well. That and Eagle eye so you don't have to get at 30' from your targets.

 

[Voltumna]

And about the picts, the Stalking cat pict style alternate combat style from Hs Fiercest is pretty cool. You get Sense weakness, Sniper's eye and Out of thin air as bonus feats. Out of thin air reduces the penalty to hide to -10 after taking a shot at someone. There are other good combat styles there for snipers.

 

[urdinaran]

Just remember, only 1 surprise round per combat.

I don't recall the Feat in question, but if it says you can use a full-attack action then that's good, since you only get a standard action in the surprise round.

The way I normally handle the situation given is this:

- Sniper makes a Hide check
- Target makes a Spot check vs. Sniper's Hide when he/she gets into position to possibly see the Sniper OR right before the Sniper fires

Most victims of "surprise" will usually get some kind of chance not to be; i.e. a Spot or Listen check

 

[Voltumna]

Ambush appears in three books, ATR, Hs Fiercest and Fallen. The Ambush version I am refering is in Hs Fallen.

It says:

Prereqs: hide and move silently 5 ranks, Improved initiative.

Benefit: If you are aware of your opponents and they are not aware of you, you may take a full round action during the surprise round.

 

[Voltumna]

This question regards to the borderer ability to hide in their favoured terrain. Although it is a bit off topic, I'll post it here as it pertains surprise and borderers which was being discussed here too.

When you have a sufficiently high favoured terrain, you can hide even if the terrain grants no concealment or cover, and you can hide while being observed. So what does this mean in game terms? Could it work like this:

A borderer or of whom you are aware of is moving toward you and there is no cover or concealment in his path. Given he has the mentioned abilities, he could disappear in thin air if he wins his hide check vs your spot check? Does this mean that after you were aware of him, and after which he disapeared, he could surprise you if you don't spot him before he gets close enough to melee attack you?