Sneak & Intiative Question

BigSteveUK

Mongoose
Hi Guys,

I have had a quick look for answers to this question, but wondered if there was any official ruling, or from your experience worked the best.

Initiative
It says at the start of combat until you get an action your are treated as flat-footed DV10 (excluding feats). Is this only when combat suddenly kicks off, say you’re in a bar, or leap into a room, or run into some guards? I assume, if you had 2 groups at some distance both prepared for each other, neither party would be flat-footed? Cause surely flat-footed means your not prepared for combat.

Sneak Attack
Does Uncanny Dodge and,Reflexive Parry disable sneak attack as the individual can dodge/parry? Or does it simple mean they retain their bonus but are still subject to sneak attacks?

Cheers,

Steve
 
BigSteveUK said:
Initiative
It says at the start of combat until you get an action your are treated as flat-footed DV10 (excluding feats). Is this only when combat suddenly kicks off, say you’re in a bar, or leap into a room, or run into some guards? I assume, if you had 2 groups at some distance both prepared for each other, neither party would be flat-footed? Cause surely flat-footed means your not prepared for combat.

:arrow: As far as I recall it, you are always flat-footed until your first action in a combat, wether you have been surprised or you saw your enemy advance.

BigSteveUK said:
Sneak Attack
Does Uncanny Dodge and,Reflexive Parry disable sneak attack as the individual can dodge/parry? Or does it simple mean they retain their bonus but are still subject to sneak attacks?

:arrow: A character with Uncanny Dodge and/or Refexive Parry is not susceptible to Sneak Attacks. But you could still be sneaked with a ranged weapon if you have Reflexive Parry and are flat-footed, since you cannot parry a ranged attack.

I hope that helps. :wink:
 
About the initiative: as I see it, you're not flat-footed if you are aware of the situation. I count drawing a weapon or just preparing yourself for a fight as the first action - in my games combat does not start with the first blow (unless it's a surprise round or anything similar), so there's usual at least a round spent on drawing weapons, exchanging insults, preparing, picking nose or whatever the character does to get ready. It's a matter of deciding what triggers the first combat round - a challenge, drawing blades or a sneaky backstab.
 
BigSteveUK said:
Initiative
It says at the start of combat until you get an action your are treated as flat-footed DV10 (excluding feats). Is this only when combat suddenly kicks off, say you’re in a bar, or leap into a room, or run into some guards? I assume, if you had 2 groups at some distance both prepared for each other, neither party would be flat-footed? Cause surely flat-footed means your not prepared for combat.

All combatants always start combat flat footed. If a combatant is unaware, then other combatants get a free surprise round before initiative order starts.

Think of it this way: Everyone is slightly un-ready, preparing thier defenses, but then the guys who are quicker can take advantage of the fact that the slower guys won't be able to defend as fast as they do. If they catch those slow guys unaware too...big time bad news for the slow, unaware crew - they'll probably get spanked.

BigSteveUK said:
Sneak Attack
Does Uncanny Dodge and,Reflexive Parry disable sneak attack as the individual can dodge/parry? Or does it simple mean they retain their bonus but are still subject to sneak attacks?

Yes, both prevent sneak attacks - they each allow you to choose a defense that you normally wouldn't be allowed to if you were otherwise caught flat-footed.

Sneak attacks can be made under broad conditions though, so it's not simply lack of Dodge and Parry defense. Flanking someone allows sneak attacks to be made, too, and it doesn't matter if you can Dodge/Parry or not if you are flanked.
 
Feuerbart said:
:arrow: A character with Uncanny Dodge and/or Refexive Parry is not susceptible to Sneak Attacks. But you could still be sneaked with a ranged weapon if you have Reflexive Parry and are flat-footed, since you cannot parry a ranged attack.

I hope that helps. :wink:

They actualy are. They are just not at such disadvantage as DV10, as they retain their DEX or STR bonus to DV while flat footed. This has been discused before here.
 
Shoot, it seems I am mistaken. Acorting to this thread:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6315&highlight=

they can actualy avoid the sneak attacks when caught flat footed.

I think there was another discussion though.
 
Yep...that whole "retain DEX bonus to DV" went out when AE came in.

Now sneak attack is only possible under two conditions, although they are easy to accomplish:

A) opponent is denied Dodge & Parry (eg. flat-footed, unconcious, helpless, etc.)
B) opponent is flanked

I forgot about using sneak attack from range. There's no "deflect arrow" super hero nonsense in Conan, so you can only Dodge projectiles, so if you ahve Uncanny Dodge, then you cannot be sneak attacked by ranged attacks because you are not without both types of defense. It's only when both Dodge and Parry are denied that a sneak attack can be performed aprt from flanking an enemy in melee.
 
Sutek said:
I forgot about using sneak attack from range. There's no "deflect arrow" super hero nonsense in Conan, so you can only Dodge projectiles, so if you ahve Uncanny Dodge, then you cannot be sneak attacked by ranged attacks because you are not without both types of defense. It's only when both Dodge and Parry are denied that a sneak attack can be performed aprt from flanking an enemy in melee.

If the character is running he is denied DEX bonus to DV, therefore he can not dodge. He would be subject to ranged sneak attacks, unless he had the Run feat, which let's you dodge while running.
 
Actually...you can;'t Dodge or Parry while running unless you hav ethe Run feat. If you ahve the Run feat, you can Dodge, so that'll help versus both melee and ranged sneak attack attempts while running (pg161 AE).

Atlantean edition doesn't speak in terms of "DEX bonus to DV", or even "DV" for that matter, anymore.
 
I suppose, if you are playing with the older rule book.

In the Atlantean edition, it isn't that way anymore.
 
Sutek said:
Actually...you can;'t Dodge or Parry while running unless you hav ethe Run feat. If you ahve the Run feat, you can Dodge, so that'll help versus both melee and ranged sneak attack attempts while running (pg161 AE).

Atlantean edition doesn't speak in terms of "DEX bonus to DV", or even "DV" for that matter, anymore.

I had missed your point here, which is precisely what I was saying. You need the Run feat in order to dodge ranged sneak attacks, as you can still Dodge while running IF you have the Run feat.

Still ranged sneak attacks have a range of 30' or 60' at the most, if the attacker has the Eagle eye feat. Someone running wont be a target for ranged sneak attacks for long for the same attacker. He would be at the same disadvantage with any other ranged attacks before he gets into ranged sneak attack range if he doesn't have the Run feat.

And yeah, still using the old rules, but you can infer the same from the old benefits of the Run feat.

-edited typo
 
BigSteveUK said:
I assume though that if you only have Reflexive Parry you are susceptible to ranged sneak attacks.
Yeah. Since Reflexive Parry only lets you Parry when flat-footed and Parry can't be used against ranged attacks, this feat doesn't help you against ranged sneak attacks the way Uncanny Dodge would.
 
BigSteveUK said:
Initiative
It says at the start of combat until you get an action your are treated as flat-footed DV10 (excluding feats). Is this only when combat suddenly kicks off, say you’re in a bar, or leap into a room, or run into some guards? I assume, if you had 2 groups at some distance both prepared for each other, neither party would be flat-footed? Cause surely flat-footed means your not prepared for combat.
There is no "prepared for each other" you are always flat-footed until your first regular action. The reason for this is very simple: faster characters deserve a benefit for being fast and in d20 about the only advantage you get is catching the other guy flat footed. This doesn't have to mean that the slow guy is standing around with his thumb up his butt (though it could) it could simply mean that the faster guy makes his shot count.

Sneak Attack
Does Uncanny Dodge and,Reflexive Parry disable sneak attack as the individual can dodge/parry? Or does it simple mean they retain their bonus but are still subject to sneak attacks?
Yes, they "disable" sneak attack, but only in the case of being flat-footed due to loosing initative or being attacked by an invisible attacker. You can still be sneak attacked by a flanker or loosing your Dex/Str bonus due to being grappled or running or climbing or ....

Hope that helps.
 
Ok cleared up the sneak stuff.

I am wondering still about the flat footed side, how do most people play it.

I understand what you’re saying about quicker people having the initiative, but putting the rules to the side for one second. I understand that in certain circumstances speed and initiative would give you a certain advantage, I just think circumstances play an important part e.g.

You step out from the darkness behind a guard, and stab him he is surprised & flat footed.

Your get in an argument with a scary dude you both go for your blades, your initiative is higher than his, fair enough you catch him flat footed as he can not properly defend himself.

You face off against 6 guards in a long large, room (can't cover in one round), and you’re telling me that you run across the room, roll initiative and even though you’re all aware of each other prepared for the fight that you still could catch them flat-footed!!!!

Surely if being prepared has no impact, the speed advantage would exist in every round, as you would be no more prepared for the second round of attacks than the first??

Cheers,

Steve
 
BigSteveUK said:
You step out from the darkness behind a guard, and stab him he is surprised & flat footed.

Your get in an argument with a scary dude you both go for your blades, your initiative is higher than his, fair enough you catch him flat footed as he can not properly defend himself.

You face off against 6 guards in a long large, room (can't cover in one round), and you’re telling me that you run across the room, roll initiative and even though you’re all aware of each other prepared for the fight that you still could catch them flat-footed!!!!
And this then is one of the key places where the GM has to step in and adjudicate things. The major factors to look at here are encounter distance and awarness. Encounter distance is the distance at which characters can check for awarness of the other side, if they are aware then they can choose to go into initative and start combat.

In your third example the encounter distance is set at some distance too large to cover in one round (lets say ... 100'). Both sides check for awarness and everybody sees everybody else. Both sides decide to go into initative (obviously they recognize each other as enemies). Since everybody takes their first action standing 100' away nobody will be flat-footed by the time melee begins (though maybe some ranged attacks could come into play ...)

But lets say that you have your encounter start at 100' as before but the guards don't recognize the PC's as enemies and the PC's decide to try some subtrfuge before violence (suprising I know :wink: ) they want to walk over and chat up the guards then attack. The important thing here is that you do not roll initative untill combat starts, so nobody roll initative and everybody is flat-footed. The PC's stroll over and when they finally are ready to attack it will look more like your second example with both guys going for their blades and both sides rolling init .... maybe if the players do a good job of roleplaying fast talking the guards you could award them a +2 circumstance bonus to init. Maybe if they did a really good job, maybe threw in a few bluff/diplomacy checks, then you could award them an entire suprise round.

However, now lets say the where the PC's enter the room it is dark. So the PC's are 100' away and aware of the guards but the guards are not aware of the PC's. The PC's decide to sneak up on the guards and attack. They roll init and become un-flat footed as soon as they take their first action. Meanwhile unless the guards become aware of the PC's sneaking up on them (spot/listen vs hide/move silent) they will not roll initative and remain flatfooted. When the PC's are finally ready to strike it looks like your first example, they jump out of the shadows and take a suprise round. If they should also win init then the guards will continue to be flat footed durring the first round and that will probably spell their doom.

Thing is, this is the sort of thing that is very dependent on the situation, as a GM it is exactly your job to play it by ear and try to make sure that the game runs smoothly while remaining as close to the rules as possible. The thing to remember is that there is no "preparing for combat". Preparing for combat is what you do on that first round when you are becomming un-flat footed. The way to make sure that you are "prepared for combat" is to make sure that you become aware of your enemy (*cough* send a scout *cough*) when you are far enough away that you can drop into initative and become un-flat footed before he closes to striking range. Of course if he sees you draw steel and buckle on your sheild he will do the same thing.... If you want to catch your enemy flat footed you either need to play it cool and trust that you are the faster draw or else sneak up on him.

Hope that helps.
 
I didn';t even read all that (sorry man - lol) but I'd just handle it this way.

Yes, they're caught flat-footed at the start of that 6 to 1 fight, but if anyone in the first round uses a move action to close distance in excess of a 5 foot step, then the target combatant is no longer flat footed if he can pass a REF save using tha assailant's attack result as a DC.

The way the rule reads is that until a combatant acts, he is considered flat-footed for the combat. Your scenario makes that unreasonable. In the 6 on 1 fight, both sides are aware of one another so if one goon comes running accross the room, it's pretty obvious that it's time to defend yourself.

Now another way to look at it is to run it verbatim, just the way the rules say to, and the reason either side is caught flat-footed is because (A) the 1 guy is so outnumbered it's too hard to concentrate on all the combatants at once, therefore he's caught flat-footed, or (B) the 6 guys are caught flat-footed because the lone warrior's charge at them is so unpredictable and brazen that they simply aren't prepared for it.
 
Argo's post is spot on. The problem it seems that most people have when it comes to flat footed is actually when to roll inititave. The key is to roll inititave when ever both groups are aware of each other an at leats one side wants to take a hostile action. Most combats outside of enclosed building really only leave either side flat footed for ranged attacks. As encounter ranges tend to be farther then a normal 30 foot move action.
 
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