Skin Dancing - an idea?

[Da Boss]

At present Skin dancing is, at least to me, a bit of an odity - with a lot of ifs, maybes and unknowns - I have asked about these in the rulemasters thread but have not got an answer as yet.

For instance it is not clear of fighters do or do not suffer AF / AFF fire when attempting it or if the skin dancing ship moves with the targeted ship if that ship has not moved as yet...........Lastly it seems its main use is for damaged ships to get a easy ram?

I wondered if it would be better as a Special Action - something like this:

Skin Dancing
CQ Check : opposed

Skin Dancing may be only be attempted by Blue Stars, White Stars, White Star II's, all Minbari fighters, Shials and White Star Fighters. This an exception to the rule that fighters can not attempt Special Actions

A ship may attempt to skin dance one other enemy ship by moving its base into conact with the enemy ships base. Both ships must make a immediate opposed CQ check (fighters roll a D6+6). Ships with the Lumbering trait suffer a -1 penalty and those with the Agile and or Dodge trait trait gain a cumlative(may be a little much ?) +1 bonus. Each fighter on close escort will block one skindancing attempt by a fighter (they enter a dogfight) or add +1 to the CQ check if against a ship.

If the enemy ship passes or the check is a draw, it avoids the attempt and your ship is destroyed as it ploughs into the hull of the target. (as per present rules). If a fighter or ship crashes into a ship this attack may not be dodged.

If you succeed you have successfully skin danced and will remain in contact with the attacked ship for the rest of the turn - even if it moves. If the targeted ship enters terrain, for instance an astroid field, the terrain effects both vessels normally.

The targeted ship may not fire use Antifighter or Advanced Antifighter or Fire its own weapons on the skin dancing craft - although other ships may use weapons with either the precise or Accurate trait to target them.
The skin dancing ship may only attack the ship it is in contact with and may use any and all weapons, regardless of arcs. It ignores the interceptor trait.

Its just an idea to make skin dancing more of an attack option rather than ramming option? thoughts?

 

[Burger]

Skin dancing is potentially a powerful move, since it allows you to become virtually invulnerable unless the enemy has precise or accurate weapons. Very very powerful. Therefore the CQ check has to be quite high. So... using it when crippled to deliberately fail will naturally be easy...

I do think it is better suited to an SA than currently. I would say:

Opposed CQ check is fair enough, but I think your stats make it much too easy. ISA already have +1 CQ, White Star has dodge and agile... so WS get +3 to the roll! Maybe just a standard CQ check would be simpler.
- If you win, skin dance as you describe
- If you lose you don't crash, but you messed up. Remain where you are on the table, can be shot by the enemy, and can't fire any weapons yourself (OOC: to prevent you using it every turn. IC: your head is spinning too much)
- If you roll a 1, you crash

 

[Da Boss]

hmm thank you very good points - how about:

Skin Dancing
CQ Check : 9 (fighters roll a D6 and succeed on a 5+)

Skin Dancing may be only be attempted by Blue Stars, White Stars, White Star II's, all Minbari fighters, Shials and White Star Fighters. This an exception to the rule that fighters can not attempt Special Actions

A ship may attempt to skin dance one other enemy ship by moving its base into conact with the enemy ships base. You may not skin dance against fighters.

Make an immediate CQ check (fighters roll a D6 and need 5+).

This roll is modified as follows:

If the target Ship has the Lumbering trait +1
If the target ship has Agile and/or Dodge trait or is SM -1

Each fighter on close escort will block one skindancing attempt by a fighter (they enter a dogfight) or give a -1 to the CQ check if against a ship.

If the Unmodified roll is a 1 your ship is destroyed as it ploughs into the hull of the target. (as per present rules). If a fighter or ship crashes into a ship this attack may not be dodged.

If the CQ is unsuccessful but you messed up. Remain where you are on the table, you may be shot by the enemy, and can't fire any weapons yourself. You may still use defensive systems such as dodge and interceptors.

If you succeed you have successfully skin danced and will remain in contact with the attacked ship for the rest of the turn - even if it moves. If the targeted ship enters terrain, for instance an asteroid field, the terrain effects both vessels normally.

The targeted ship may not fire use Antifighter or Advanced Antifighter or Fire its own weapons on the skin dancing craft - although other ships may use weapons with either the precise or Accurate trait to target them.
The skin dancing ship may only attack the ship it is in contact with and may use any and all weapons, regardless of arcs. It ignores the interceptor trait.

 

[Burger]

Sounds good to me :lol:
Roll on 3e!

 

[Da Boss]

Ah well there is always the yearly update

You know the one where Shadow fighters get better so no more baby Shadows die

 

[Burger]

Oh, the one that exists only in your imagination, you mean? :lol:

 

[Da Boss]

Well recently I was asked "What do you want!?" and that was number 87 on a very long list.................. :shock: :lol:

 

[Taran]

hmm thank you very good points - how about:

Skin Dancing
CQ Check : 9 (fighters roll a D6 and succeed on a 5+)

Skin Dancing may be only be attempted by Blue Stars, White Stars, White Star II's, all Minbari fighters, Shials and White Star Fighters. This an exception to the rule that fighters can not attempt Special Actions

A ship may attempt to skin dance one other enemy ship by moving its base into conact with the enemy ships base. You may not skin dance against fighters.

Make an immediate CQ check (fighters roll a D6 and need 5+).

This roll is modified as follows:

If the target Ship has the Lumbering trait +1
If the target ship has Agile and/or Dodge trait or is SM -1

Each fighter on close escort will block one skindancing attempt by a fighter (they enter a dogfight) or give a -1 to the CQ check if against a ship.

If the Unmodified roll is a 1 your ship is destroyed as it ploughs into the hull of the target. (as per present rules). If a fighter or ship crashes into a ship this attack may not be dodged.

If the CQ is unsuccessful but you messed up. Remain where you are on the table, you may be shot by the enemy, and can't fire any weapons yourself. You may still use defensive systems such as dodge and interceptors.

If you succeed you have successfully skin danced and will remain in contact with the attacked ship for the rest of the turn - even if it moves. If the targeted ship enters terrain, for instance an asteroid field, the terrain effects both vessels normally.

The targeted ship may not fire use Antifighter or Advanced Antifighter or Fire its own weapons on the skin dancing craft - although other ships may use weapons with either the precise or Accurate trait to target them.
The skin dancing ship may only attack the ship it is in contact with and may use any and all weapons, regardless of arcs. It ignores the interceptor trait.

I'd really rather let them still fire, but they can only target the ship they were attempting to skindance. Otherwise failure is too great a punishment. At least if they crash, they still get an attack...

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm seams resonable - not sure if it needs a more specific wording on what happens if it fails to dance regarding oreintation being the same as the initial attack run?

 

[OnlyTheShadowKnows]

I like this idea a lot!

I wouldn't though let a ship be able to fire if they failed the skin dancing roll. They are too busy trying to avoid ramming that they wouldn't even think about firing. Maybe on a whitestar since that would be two different crew members working on two different sections of the ship.

GO BOSS!!! Maybe I will try it out this weekend for fun.

-OTSK

 

[lastbesthope]

If Skin Dancing becomes an SA, one of my theoretical, but as yet never used, tactics is almost completely ruled out. Though I have just thought of a way I could do it, but I'd really not want to try it, even in desperation.

LBH

 

[Da Boss]

hmm - Whilst I like the idea of skin dancing - unfortunatley at present the wording is vague - hence my rulesmaster enquiry. I would prefer it to be a way of attacking in an unqiue way than a way of ramming............

 

[lastbesthope]

It is a unique way of attacking, trouble is it also has the unique down side of when you fluff your attack you crash into the target :lol:

LBH

 

[Clanger]

Another question on skindancing.

Can you skin dance a ship which has not moved yet, then once it moves will the skindancing ship move with it?

Had a disagreement on this the other night. I would say no, you have to skindance an already moved ship, but the other person said it does not say it does nor does not.

What do others think on this.

 

[Burger]

Clanger, that is one aspect of skin dancing's currently very vague wording. It is the main reason for this thread, to provide a better implemented and clearer replacement! Currently skin dancing is way too much risk, you stand a 50% chance of losing your White Star completely, to gain benefits that are useful but not that great (you're immune for one turn only, and not to Precise or Accurate weapons). So it is primarily used as an easier way to ram than Ramming Speed with a crippled white star.

 

[Da Boss]

If Skin Dancing becomes an SA, one of my theoretical, but as yet never used, tactics is almost completely ruled out. Though I have just thought of a way I could do it, but I'd really not want to try it, even in desperation.

LBH

the question is also - would you (or any ISA player) now use it as a useful special action rather than something that you may possibily in the future perhaps use?

If not what would you need to have to make it usable?

 

[kalain76]

While I like the idea, I would just like to verify a couple things, because you KNOW it's going to come up...

If you succeed you have successfully skin danced and will remain in contact with the attacked ship for the rest of the turn - even if it moves. If the targeted ship enters terrain, for instance an asteroid field, the terrain effects both vessels normally.

First - The way this is written, it could cause a ship to move over it's alotted speed. e.g. a White Star moves 15 inches to come into contact with a G'Vrahn, then the G'Vrahn moves 8 inches (after initial contact). Technically, the White Star moved a total of 23 inches that turn...

Second - In the example given, which direction would the White Star be facing at the end of that turn? Let's say that (after already turning once) the White Star was facing "North" when it came into contact with the G'Vrahn, but he G'Vrahn was moving "Southeast". When the G'Vrahn moves, do we also change the direction of the White Star to match, even if it goes over the 2/90 for that turn?

Sorry if this over-complicates things. But again, you KNOW it's going to happen...

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm thanks yes its a good point and is part of the problem with the present special rule in that it does not say what happens

At present I would say that the part of the special action allows you to move with the ship (sort of like APTE) and it should, I think, face the direction of the target ships movement regardless?

Is that too powerful? Espceially with crippled ships that make the CQ check?However the Special Action isrisky and can mean either firey death or sitting in front of enemy guns with no firing

The only alternative is I think:

it retains the orginal oerientation and can only move what movement it has left? For ease I prefer the former but it could be unbalanced?

What do you think?

 

[lastbesthope]

Just thought of another potentail issue that already exists in Skin Dancing, since fighters now count as ships unless specified otherwise, you could skindance a fighter.....

LBH

 

[Da Boss]

yeah I noticed that - my 2nd version says you can't