Skills - Zero's and ones

[Jak Nazryth]

Ok, so a few of us cannot figure out how specialized skills work outside the narrow description on page 6 of the Core Rule Book. Our question revolves around having a skill at zero, vs completely untrained when you roll... (Engineering 1 (any).

The rule book specifically state for Skill with specialties, that if you have the General skill at zero, the next time you spend points on it, you can specialize in a specific sub category. "a character might have Engineer 0 allowing him to make any engineer skill checks with an unskilled penalty. He might then gain a level in Engineer, giving him Engineer (Jump drive) +1 but ALL other engineering checks +0 DM."

The paragraph on page 52 states "When a character reaches level 1 in a skill, he cant take a specialty in that skill" which obviously means a character MUST FIRST have the skill at zero. But again, we cannot find any simple rule or statement that clarifies this.

What we cannot figure out is if you get one of the skill on your training table with a specialty, do you get the general skill at +0, AND your chosen specific specialty at a +1... AT THE SAME TIME????

There are only 3 possibilities when you randomly roll a skill like this for the very first time, but the Rule book just does not explain adequately...

1) You get specialized skill (any) ie Engineer (Jump Drive +1) but ALL other engineer skills are untrained -3 DM

2) You get the specialized BASE skill at +0 (Engineer) AND your chosen specialization (Jump Drive) at +1 DM as a result of your very first roll on the skill.

3) The first time you role this skill, you get the BASE skill (Engineer) +0, then the second time your random roll lands on this skill, you choose a specialization (Jump Drive) +1

Is there a specific rule or paragraph I have overlooked?
It's kind of important because one of my players randomly rolled Engineer, only once, and did not have it previously. Nobody can figure out if he has Engineer (general) +0, or Engineer (general) + 0 AND (Jump Drives +1.

The very same confusion applies to other skills like Gun Combat.
On your very first roll to you get Gun Combat (all guns) +0 AND (laser rifles) +1

Thanks for any help with clarifying this rule.

 

[rust]

As I read it, a Skill Level 1 always includes the Level 0 of that skill, too,
it is impossible to have Level 1 without Level 0.

If the character gets "Engineer 0", it is obvious. If the skill is listed as "En-
gineer", without a number, the character either learns the skill at level 0
or adds 1 to his skill level. If the skill is listed as "Engineer 1", the charac-
ter jumps right to level 1, which includes level 0.

 

[Old timer]

The way the rule seems to be intended is that at level zero you have a basic understanding in the skill and its specialities, so you avoid the -3 unskilled penalty. If you have a skill at level one, you have one of it specialities at level one, and all other skill specialities at zero. For example if you have gun combat at level one, you have one speciality, lets say slug rifles, at that level, and all others (slug pistol, shotguns, energy rifle and pistol) at zero.

Hope that helps.

 

[DFW]

pg 51 - "Some skills have specialities – specialised forms of that skill. A
character picks a speciality when he gains level 1 in a skill with
specialities. For example, a character might have Engineer 0,
allowing him to make any Engineer skill checks without an
unskilled penalty. He might then gain a level in Engineer, giving
him Engineer (Jump drives) 1. He would make all Engineer
checks involving Jump drives at a +1 DM, but would make all
other Engineer checks at a +0 DM."

 

[BP]

Simple answer:
If a skill level is stated (i.e. Pilot 1, Computer 0) then it is not an increase and must be taken at that level (useless if already possessed). If no skill is stated, it is always Level 1 or an increase by 1 level - with level 0 included automatically (with the exception of the Service skills, which should show level 0...).

Having a skill automatically means Level 0 in all 'specialties' of that skill (with some explicit exceptions for skills like Language...). Specialty must be stated for higher levels.

More details:

• First - see pg 6 (all pages here from Core rule book) which defines skill levels. Level 0 is basic 'competency' but 'little experience'. Ex: for Pilot this would mean knowing the basics of flight (atmo/space) maybe from instruction/videos and maybe even taking a live stick, but probably no more than one solo landing, if that (from the DM mechanics, he would have only a ~42% base chance of success at an average piloting task - see pg 49). At this point, there is not enough experience to really apply to any given specialty - be it a launch or a capital ship - the odds of success are the same...
  
  Next, pg 8 under skills and training: 'Skills can be listed with or without an associated level. If no rank [edit: this should read level... sigh] is listed, then you gain that skill at Level 1 if you do not have it already, or increase its level by one if you are already trained in that field.'
  
  Following sentence: 'If a rank is listed, then you gain the skill at that level as long as it is better than your current level in that skill.'
  
  Note, if you keep reading, under Basic Training it states that the Service skills are all level 0 (though they failed to put this in the tables!), just like homeworld skills.
  
  Now, refer to the Jamison example starting on pg 38. Too bad the example is not straight forward, but...
  
  pg 38 - first term gains Pilot from roll of 1 on the Merchant Marine Specialist skills table - which he had no skill in (i.e. no Pilot 0). [of course, the example fails to spell out specifically what this means, but...]
  
  pg 39 we find out in the fourth term that he had Pilot (spacecraft) 1 in the first term when he gets Pilot (any) 1 from promotion to 1st Officer. Because level is specifically stated for the promotion skill (i.e. Pilot 1 not just Pilot) he cannot use this to go to Pilot (spacecraft) 2 and must instead pick another specialty [in his case, Pilot (small craft) 1 is chosen].
  
  When he got Pilot skill - he automatically got Pilot (any) 0 along with his specialty.

Hope that helps!

 

[locarno24]

If the skill is listed as "Engineer", without a number, the character either learns the skill at level 0 or adds 1 to his skill level. If the skill is listed as "Engineer 1", the character jumps right to level 1, which includes level 0.

Note that the downside to this is that if you've already picked the skill up anyway, receiving 'skill_name/1' can often be a waste - if you're already level 1 or better you get no benefit (it's quite often promotion skill boosts that turn out to be the same thing you've just rolled up on service skills).



As to specialisms, the key thing to remember is from the Career Format section:

Skills can be listed with or without an associated level. If no rank is listed, then you gain that skill at Level 1 if you do not have it already, or increases its level by one if you are already trained in that field. If a rank is listed, then you gain the skill at that level as long as it is better than your current level in that skill.

Or to translate, when you roll up a skill on the table you don't have, you get it at level 1.

So Diplomacy/1, Streetwise/1, Catering/1, whatever.

Skills with specialisms can only be taken to level 1 or more in a specialism - you can't have Engineer/1, only Engineer (Jump Drives)/1. See the reference DFW provided.

However you still count as Engineer/0 for anything that's not a Jump Drive (because you clearly know your way around built-in test systems and know what Ling Standard Parts connectors are used for data, power, and so on).

 

[Jak Nazryth]

I think everyone who has responded has seen the same problem in the rules as we have. They state when you have a skill at zero and go up to one point, but fail to mention what happens when you your random roll lands on a specialized skill for the very first time.

DFW, we both typed what the rule said word for word, but those exact words are what caused the confusion in the first place, since the statement assumes you already have the skill at zero. The rules NEVER describe what happens when you roll the skill for the very first time. (see above)

BP Thanks for the examples, and you're right, you have to extrapolate the meanings from paragraphs. I agree they need a simple statement or place it on the chart, something like this...
"When a character roll's a skill for the very first time that has specialties, the character gets the base skill at zero and his chosen specialty at 1"
That simple sentence would clarify everything.

locarno24 - Yep, we all saw the same thing.
We were kinda toying around with getting "Jack of all trades" modified into something like "Jack of Engineering" or "Jack of combat"... so you can raise all sub-categories by 1 under the general skill. You might be able to do it in the point-buy system, but it would screw things up with the tables to try and introduce something else into the mix.

Anyway, thanks everyone for you input. Very simple question to resolve and all my players can now feel confident that they're skill sets are correct.

 

[DFW]

The rules NEVER describe what happens when you roll the skill for the very first time. (see above)

You only get level 0 if it says so explicitly (starting homeworld skills or basic training). Otherwise, it is level 1 or the level stated. "If no rank is listed, then you gain that skill at Level 1 if you do not have it already"

 

[Jak Nazryth]

I'm not sure you understood the question, everyone else in this thread got it.
Let's take your last statement, directly out of the rule book, as I have stated previously several times.

If you're role lands on a skill for the very first time, that has a specialty (Engineering) and you choose (Jump drive 1) the player writes down Engineer (Jump drive) 1 on his character sheet.

Now what is his DM for all the other skills under the Engineer category, -3, 0, or 1?

That is what the rule book does not specify. It ONLY states that if you have a skill at 0 in a base skill along with all the sub-categories, and that when you get a rank of 1, you must chose a specialty. The rule implies that you need to have engineer 0 before you raise a specialization to 1. NEVER in the rules does it state what happen when your random roll lands on one of these special skill for the very first time. It's just a blank in the rules.

But between everyone else in this thread we have come to the agreement that the rule left out that you AUTOMATICALLY get the base skill at 0 (along with all other specialized skills under the base skill at 0) AND a +1 in your chosen specialization.

Thanks again for your input.

 

[DFW]

I'm not sure you understood the question, everyone else in this thread got it.

Now what is his DM for all the other skills under the Engineer category, -3, 0, or 1?

No, you didn't comprehend the rule I posted:

"He might then gain a level in Engineer, giving him Engineer (Jump drives) 1. He would make all Engineer checks involving Jump drives at a +1 DM, but would make all other Engineer checks at a +0 DM."

The rule is crystal clear as written.

 

[GJD]

If you have Pottery 0, then gain Pottery 1 (Teapots) then you can make skill checks for other Pottery specialisations (Cups, Plates, Jugs etc) without taking the untrained skill penalty, so with a skill DM of 0.

G.

 

[BP]

...
We were kinda toying around with getting "Jack of all trades" modified into something like "Jack of Engineering" or "Jack of combat"...

Level 0 is exactly like JoT 3 for any particular skill.

I came directly from CT, which didn't have Engineering specialties - one skill covered M&J drives and PP. Electronics was separate. MgT's Engineering makes a little more sense in this regards - plus MgT chars get a bit more skill/levels than CT, which I've found balanced things out well.

However, for small parties, I've taken to allowing Skill Level minus 1 upto Level 2 for non-specialties for specific skills when used (not for chargen). If one wants to be Level 3+ in 2 or more specialties, the chargen costs are still the same - which encourages taking other skills...

 

[Jak Nazryth]

@ BP.... yep! But you can purchase JOAT's in the point-buy system. I was wondering if we could make JOAT's less expensive, but narrow it down to a class set, like Engineer, or Gun Combat. So instead of purchasing Jump drive 1, or Jump drive 2, you can simply get Engineer 1, Engineer 2 and get all the sub-skills at that level. Wonder if it is worth making a new home rule... ? Nah. Not worth it.

@ GJD... Yes, we all know the rule you quoted. :wink: My questions, my groups of players questions, is what happens when you don't have potter at any level, and then you roll the skill randomly for the very first time. All the examples we have read, including the main paragraph concerning skills with specialties on page 52 which start out as... "Some skills have specialties" it states "A character might have Engineer 0" and in another part of the rules it states "If a character has the skill at zero" In all cases the rules as written ONLY give examples of how a specialized skill formula works if and when you already have the base skill at 0, but never when it untrained to begin with.

@ DFW...

(The rule is crystal clear as written.)

(sigh) no it is not crystal clear in regards to not having it in the first place.

DFW, what you edited from the rules you quoted "as written" was the following "A character might have Engineer at level 0..."
The rule you quoted states all other Engineer checs at a +0 DM and it presupposes that you already have the skill at zero before getting the skill at level 1.

That was the crux of our question. What happens if you DO NOT have it at zero when it comes up on the skill list.

major props to you guys for being helpful, professional and mostly friendly in helping to address this blank spot in the rule book.
I have been playing Traveller since 1982 in various forms. I have been playing Mongoose for exactly 1 week. Still learning the specifics of the rules and will have more questions I'm sure.

So to sum it all up.
If you randomly roll a skill that has a series of sub-categories, without EVER having the skill prior (even at level zero) You automatically get the base skill (thus all sub-skills) at zero and your chosen specialty at 1 etc...

Thanks again for everyone's input

 

[DFW]

DFW, what you edited from the rules you quoted "as written" was the following "A character might have Engineer at level 0..."
The rule you quoted states all other Engineer checs at a +0 DM and it presupposes that you already have the skill at zero before getting the skill at level 1.

No, it doesn't presuppose. YOU are reading something into the rule that isn't stated. Thus, your confusion. There are two different parts to the rule. You have, incorrectly, read it as a requirement rather than two different possible scenarios. It is a grammatical misunderstanding on your part.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Hey does DFW mean Dallas Fort Worth?

We need 1 more for our game on Tuesdays nights. If you do live in the DFW area would you be interested?

 

[DFW]

Hey does DFW mean Dallas Fort Worth?

We need 1 more for our game on Tuesdays nights. If you do live in the DFW area would you be interested?

I wish. I'd like to move to the area.

If you can't find someone on this board try, http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI
as there are a lot of players there too.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

We rolled up characters last Tuesday and the real game starts next Tuesday. I have 5 players but they have voted to try and get a 6th member. I am not a Rules Nazi (more of a story telling GM) and it would help if there was someone who knew the Mongoose rules really well in the group.
Since you are called DFW, I thought I would ask.

 

[DFW]

We rolled up characters last Tuesday and the real game starts next Tuesday. I have 5 players but they have voted to try and get a 6th member. I am not a Rules Nazi (more of a story telling GM) and it would help if there was someone who knew the Mongoose rules really well in the group.
Since you are called DFW, I thought I would ask.

I'm flattered that you would ask. I wish I lived nearby.

 

[GJD]

@ GJD... Yes, we all know the rule you quoted. :wink: My questions, my groups of players questions, is what happens when you don't have potter at any level, and then you roll the skill randomly for the very first time. All the examples we have read, including the main paragraph concerning skills with specialties on page 52 which start out as... "Some skills have specialties" it states "A character might have Engineer 0" and in another part of the rules it states "If a character has the skill at zero" In all cases the rules as written ONLY give examples of how a specialized skill formula works if and when you already have the base skill at 0, but never when it untrained to begin with.

You get engineer 1, so you choose a specialty - it's required. The only level 0 skills are granted at level 0 - so when you gain a skill AT 1 or gain a +1 to a skill, it always starts at 1. A level 1 skill (or higher) obviates the need for the unskilled penalty if rolling for a skill that you don't possess the right specialty for. Simples.