Skills Question about Specialties
- Thread starter nezeray
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Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Sturn is correct. This was an area that caused a lot of confusion during the playtest, but it was explained to us this way and this is how it is meant to be used.
There are exceptions. TRADE (Biologicals) 1 does not give you Level 0 in all other trade skills. The same is true of the Language Skill. Having Language (Trokh) 1, does not give you Language (Vilani) 0.
That is also why the Science skills are divided into 4 separate skills, within each of the skills, you get Level 0 if you have any of the specialties at Level 1. But, having Social Science (History) 1 does not give you Physical Science (Chemistry) 0. It DOES give you Social Science (Psychology) 0 though.
When you get a Level 0 skill as a background or basic training skill, you get ALL of the specialties at Level 0. When you have Level 1 (or more) in any of the specialties, you get Level 0 in all the other specialties.
There are exceptions. TRADE (Biologicals) 1 does not give you Level 0 in all other trade skills. The same is true of the Language Skill. Having Language (Trokh) 1, does not give you Language (Vilani) 0.
That is also why the Science skills are divided into 4 separate skills, within each of the skills, you get Level 0 if you have any of the specialties at Level 1. But, having Social Science (History) 1 does not give you Physical Science (Chemistry) 0. It DOES give you Social Science (Psychology) 0 though.
When you get a Level 0 skill as a background or basic training skill, you get ALL of the specialties at Level 0. When you have Level 1 (or more) in any of the specialties, you get Level 0 in all the other specialties.
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
Thanks RTT for the closest to "official" we've had so far.
If this is the case (i.e., some of the skills with subspecialisations have autopromotion to level 0 skill on obtaining any inclusive 1+ level subspecialisation) then i) it should have been written into the rulebook from the start and/or ii) there should be an official clarrification on this point as to exactly which skills are included/excluded. Since Signs & Portents have official rules expansions, etc., it seems the logical place to me.
Personally, it seems a gross simplification. Of course J drive and M drive subspecialties are complete handwavium, but it seems to me that just because I get Engineer (electronics) 1 there should be no basis for, say, Engineer (J drive) 0 to follow. Pistol and longarm skills are similarly unlikely to me.
Still, I'm happy to use it as a rule if it is the game designers intentions.
Stainless said:
I completely believe that skill in one should give some basic skill in the other. Using modern examples, a pistol and rifle operate in many similar ways (ballistics, use bullets, bullets go in one place come out the barrel, etc). Training principles in one are easily used for the other - proper breathing, trigger squeeze, holding it the same way every time, sight picture, etc. If a person that is good with a Rifle, picks up a Pistol, he should easily be able to load it and fire it without a penalty (Skill 0).
It's not the same as a person good with a Bow picking up a Rifle.
indeed.
Infact, the way skills are presented in Traveller was one of the very few concepts i got straight away. The way they play seems to me the most sensible and straight forward bit of the whole game.
even if its not explicit in the rules the way they play seems to be self evident.
Chef
Infact, the way skills are presented in Traveller was one of the very few concepts i got straight away. The way they play seems to me the most sensible and straight forward bit of the whole game.
even if its not explicit in the rules the way they play seems to be self evident.
Chef
Sturn said:
Hands up, you're right. I recant my previous comment. When I think of it, the concepts of ballistics, steady aim, recoil, ejection of cartridge, etc. are common to firearms and so justifies the 0 rating. I'm still not conviced about engineering subspecialties though.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
I thought the rules WERE pretty clear about this and the example in the book about the Engineer skill explains that.
One of the reasons that the Bow Weapons skills, Athletics (Bow Weapons) was NOT placed into the Melee Specialty or Gun Combat Specialties was to avoid that exact problem. Firing a bow is NOT close to using a sword or firing a laser rifle, BUT, firing a laser rifle is SIMILAR to firing a Slug Rifle, hence the Level 0 skill across those specialties.
The general rule is that you get Level 0 in ALL specialties for a skill whenever you get Level 1 in ANY of the specialties, there are exceptions and these are listed under the skill descriptions themselves (Trade and Language).
One of the reasons that the Bow Weapons skills, Athletics (Bow Weapons) was NOT placed into the Melee Specialty or Gun Combat Specialties was to avoid that exact problem. Firing a bow is NOT close to using a sword or firing a laser rifle, BUT, firing a laser rifle is SIMILAR to firing a Slug Rifle, hence the Level 0 skill across those specialties.
The general rule is that you get Level 0 in ALL specialties for a skill whenever you get Level 1 in ANY of the specialties, there are exceptions and these are listed under the skill descriptions themselves (Trade and Language).
Well I finally refered to the book! Searching the pdf for all uses ofthe word "specialty" I found only these relevant phrase;
pg. 6 & 51 "A character picks a speciality when he gains level 1 in a skill with specialities. For example, a character might have Engineer 0,...."
pg. 52 "When a character reaches level 1 in a skill, he can take a speciality in that skill."
pg. 59 "Unlike other skills with specialties, levels in the Trade skill
do not grant the ability to use other specialties at skill level 0."
I'd call this somewhat ambiguous and far from explicit. The first two wordings talk of gaining/reaching level 1 in a skill , not specialty, which implies the main heading of the skill (i.e., with all the specialties included), but that's only implied. It's obvious that to get to level 1 in a specialty you need to pass through level 0, but if there is no explict step or statement where one is level 0 in a skill , I think that's where the confusion comes in. It becomes clear only in something like the Trade wording. Basically the rules come down to a fairly subtle interpretation of the semantic differneces between skill and specialty or the fact that you spot the rule embeded within another rule. :roll:
I'm fine with the interpretation of auto level 0 in specialties once you gain level 1 or higher in one of the specialties, but I maintain it could have been written clearer.
pg. 6 & 51 "A character picks a speciality when he gains level 1 in a skill with specialities. For example, a character might have Engineer 0,...."
pg. 52 "When a character reaches level 1 in a skill, he can take a speciality in that skill."
pg. 59 "Unlike other skills with specialties, levels in the Trade skill
do not grant the ability to use other specialties at skill level 0."
I'd call this somewhat ambiguous and far from explicit. The first two wordings talk of gaining/reaching level 1 in a skill , not specialty, which implies the main heading of the skill (i.e., with all the specialties included), but that's only implied. It's obvious that to get to level 1 in a specialty you need to pass through level 0, but if there is no explict step or statement where one is level 0 in a skill , I think that's where the confusion comes in. It becomes clear only in something like the Trade wording. Basically the rules come down to a fairly subtle interpretation of the semantic differneces between skill and specialty or the fact that you spot the rule embeded within another rule. :roll:
I'm fine with the interpretation of auto level 0 in specialties once you gain level 1 or higher in one of the specialties, but I maintain it could have been written clearer.
There is one thing I am still somewhat confused about, namely the Scholar Advancement tables which state Life Science 1, Social Science 1, whatever Science 1, as opposed to Life Science(any) 1 etc in most skill tables (Scholar has Any Science(any), but the specialization is still mentioned). The only other skill table where I could find a general skill without the (any) qualifier was under Citizen - Worker, Rk 6 Master Technician, which states Engineering 1.
Is that supposed to mean that the character achieving that Rank gains ALL the specializations of the skill at level 1?
Is that supposed to mean that the character achieving that Rank gains ALL the specializations of the skill at level 1?
The skills that have "specialties" listed REQUIRE you to choose one of them when you get a rank in that skill field.
I also agree that Engineering should have a rank 0 across the board and then allocate ranks to the various specialties as you gain them.
Same for "guns", they are all very similar, at least in that you "point the end with the hole at what you wish to hit".
You start at Rank "0" in skills you get as background skills due to homeworld and EDU score bonus. Then you get all the listed "Service Skills" for your chosen career at Rank "0". Any skill you roll during character generation start at "1", not "0", even if you didn't already have it at "0". Just like the skills you get from rank advancements or from "Event" rolls, however those cannot increase the skill if you already have it, unless your like me and say it does.
Then you divide up one of the skill "packs" among the group members until they are all handed out.
Thats how I have interpreted the rules to work, at least.
I also agree that Engineering should have a rank 0 across the board and then allocate ranks to the various specialties as you gain them.
Same for "guns", they are all very similar, at least in that you "point the end with the hole at what you wish to hit".
You start at Rank "0" in skills you get as background skills due to homeworld and EDU score bonus. Then you get all the listed "Service Skills" for your chosen career at Rank "0". Any skill you roll during character generation start at "1", not "0", even if you didn't already have it at "0". Just like the skills you get from rank advancements or from "Event" rolls, however those cannot increase the skill if you already have it, unless your like me and say it does.
Then you divide up one of the skill "packs" among the group members until they are all handed out.
Thats how I have interpreted the rules to work, at least.
GamerDude
Cosmic Mongoose
BACKGROUND SKILLS:
Before embarking on your careers, you get a number of background skills equal to 3 + your Education DM (1 to 5, depending on your Education score). You must take the skills listed for your homeworld; any extra skills can be taken from the education list.
so EDU DM +3. First must be the one for homeworld type rest from the list.
Mostly right. If the skill is listed without a number... it goes up one rank... Rank 1 if you don't have it (or have it a zero) or up to the next rank if you already have it at 1 or higher.
If it is listed with a "1" after it like "Engineer 1" then you get the skill at Rank 1. If you already had that skill at Rank 1 or higher then it gives you nothing more.
One thing some folks do is when the basic training (service skills) includes "Gun Combat (any)" they give the character Level 0 for all the Gun Combat specialties. The rules don't say to do that for Basic Training, and the normal rules for "Skill (any)" is you must choose a specialty but I can see the logic behind giving all the Gun Combat specialties at O in this case.
Before embarking on your careers, you get a number of background skills equal to 3 + your Education DM (1 to 5, depending on your Education score). You must take the skills listed for your homeworld; any extra skills can be taken from the education list.
so EDU DM +3. First must be the one for homeworld type rest from the list.
treebore said:
Mostly right. If the skill is listed without a number... it goes up one rank... Rank 1 if you don't have it (or have it a zero) or up to the next rank if you already have it at 1 or higher.
If it is listed with a "1" after it like "Engineer 1" then you get the skill at Rank 1. If you already had that skill at Rank 1 or higher then it gives you nothing more.
One thing some folks do is when the basic training (service skills) includes "Gun Combat (any)" they give the character Level 0 for all the Gun Combat specialties. The rules don't say to do that for Basic Training, and the normal rules for "Skill (any)" is you must choose a specialty but I can see the logic behind giving all the Gun Combat specialties at O in this case.
GamerDude
Cosmic Mongoose
and I think that is a very accurate observation about the tables and where the "Engineer 1" stuff is at.Treebore said:
Of course, like you I have all the books but haven't been able to go through them.
I did have the PDF of the Core book up so was reading the exact text as I was answering.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Rank skills are almost all Level 1 skills.
The skills listed in the actual tables are all general skills, so they go up 1 level each time you roll them.
The skills listed in the actual tables are all general skills, so they go up 1 level each time you roll them.
