Silly Poll

[gamesmeister]

They also seem to have lost their mobility advantage from before. So these strengths that the elves have are good for defending their forests, and perhaps some hit-and-run raids, but they could never hope to take any land or conqure others.

For the Elves, conquest is a much longer term goal, but it's perfectly possible, and has been done to great effect in the southern continent of Pamaltela. Essentially, they move the goalposts by expanding their existing forests using powerful magics, so that neighbouring areas are overrun with forest/jungle, which is swiftly occupied by the aldryami.

Sure it takes a long time, much longer than the swift (and temporary) conquests of human or uz armies, but its foundations are much stronger as a result.

 

[Rasta]

For the Elves, conquest is a much longer term goal, but it's perfectly possible, and has been done to great effect in the southern continent of Pamaltela. Essentially, they move the goalposts by expanding their existing forests using powerful magics, so that neighbouring areas are overrun with forest/jungle, which is swiftly occupied by the aldryami.

Yeah, good point. There's not trees there? Let's make trees there. I suppose it's not as big of a deal for (near) immortals to wait a little while, until conditions are right.

 

[atgxtg]

Yeah, it's kind of stupid poll huh?

Both are better suited for defending their homes. The elves are probably pretty much worthless without their trees.

So if it was neutral territory, probably the Uz.

You kidding. How are the Uz going to get close to the Aldryami without cover? On a flat, featureless plain (the best place to leave if you want to avoid a battle-no one even fights on one), the elves could just fire arrows and give ground. The Aldyami have a decisive advantage at range.

As far as "what could spearmen and archers do against other units", well if they can fight as good as humans have historically, just fine. Spearmen have been the backbone of many of the worlds most successful armies,including those of the Greeks, Macedonians, Japanese and Swiss. Most of the armies of Japane were foguth by spearmen and archers. The spear is a very useful and effective weapon, so useful that it is still in use (bayonets) today.

The big problem would be to pin the elves down somehow. Put them indoors, or underground, where the trolls can get in close, and it's a different story.

 

[Rasta]

You kidding. How are the Uz going to get close to the Aldryami without cover? On a flat, featureless plain (the best place to leave if you want to avoid a battle-no one even fights on one), the elves could just fire arrows and give ground. The Aldyami have a decisive advantage at range.

No it wasn't a joke. Vaneekara cultists don't suffer from the range disadvantage. I'm pretty sure Vaneekara specialize in fighting elves. Also the elves don't have a mobilty advantage anymore. Uz move just as fast as Aldryami on the ground. Gorakki insect calvery would be able to close easily on them also.

As far as "what could spearmen and archers do against other units", well if they can fight as good as humans have historically, just fine.

Considering that they are smaller and weaker than humans, I would tend to think that humans using simular tactics would win on those advanages alone. Not to mention the other races. Regardless, no culures in Glorantha use just lightly armoured spearmen that rely on dodging as the primary defence. Now thoes tightly packed groups of leafies are going to have to use their underdeveloped parry skills, and meager bucklers to clash with other infantry units, in this example the Uz.

Spearmen have been the backbone of many of the worlds most successful armies,including those of the Greeks, Macedonians, Japanese and Swiss. Most of the armies of Japane were foguth by spearmen and archers. The spear is a very useful and effective weapon, so useful that it is still in use (bayonets) today.

I agree with your statement. But when pitted against the other cultures in Glorantha, nearly everyone else has a form of Calvery. I think you'll agree that all of the cultures you mentioned with the exception of mabey the swiss (i don't know) heavily used calvery to suppliment their other units. My comment was not that spearmen and archers are not viable units in battle. It was that leafy spearmen and archers when pitted against the more diverse units of nearly all other cultures, in this example the Uz, will be laughable at best without their trees to run and hide in.

 

[Twigman]

I don't think elves would ever line up in a formation. That is not the way they work. Hit and run the whole way. Calvary could be a problem, but the elves historically have had many ways to deal with them (Tanglethicket, Chameleon, or even just mobility spells). Plus Dryads have control over animals in there area (or at least used to), she can send a wave of bears or wolves.

As for small and weak, who cares? They have an average of 16 Dex! They will have one, or possibly two, more combat actions/reactions than the Trolls every round. I change my stance on the HtH combat outcome, Elves will rule 90% of the time.

 

[Rasta]

I don't think elves would ever line up in a formation. That is not the way they work. Hit and run the whole way.

Definately, I agree. I think they are best suited to sniping and gurilla warfare. That was my point. I do not see the elves ever fighting "conventional warfare" where they would emerge on a battle field in ranks and columns. They know what the outcome would be, and that is perhaps why they don't.

Calvary could be a problem, but the elves historically have had many ways to deal with them (Tanglethicket, Chameleon, or even just mobility spells). Plus Dryads have control over animals in there area (or at least used to), she can send a wave of bears or wolves.

Agreed. In the context of their forests, they are a most perilous foe. Tangle up calvery in thickets. Never really need to commit to a fixed battle line, contant harassing from skirmishers, and only need to commit spearmen (elves) when the enemy is confused and and split up. Not to mention their entire structure of "war woods" full of traps and perilous plants. However, these would not come into play if they were to fight on "neutral territory". Dryads are tied to specific locations (ie forests) and can only command beasts within their forest.

As for small and weak, who cares? They have an average of 16 Dex! They will have one, or possibly two, more combat actions/reactions than the Trolls every round. I change my stance on the HtH combat outcome, Elves will rule 90% of the time.

Strength and size are a lot more important in mass formations. So if you are talking about facing off in battle lines, I think it is very decisive, and the elves would be pushed over. Realisticly, I don't think we would ever see elves in battle lines. Hypotheticly, if they did, the result would be dire (for elves). With the supplement of their forest however, I do think they would win more times than not.

An elf army on an open battle field? That's the last place they would want to be.

I can hypotheticaly see how the Uz would be able to assault and defeat the Aldryami. Though I think it would be very rare. I can't see how the Aldryami could ever assault and defeat the Uz. Assuming that assaults are on the defenders home land.

 

[atgxtg]

No it wasn't a joke. Vaneekara cultists don't suffer from the range disadvantage. I'm pretty sure Vaneekara specialize in fighting elves. Also the elves don't have a mobilty advantage anymore. Uz move just as fast as Aldryami on the ground. Gorakki insect calvery would be able to close easily on them also.

How about the skill disadvantage? Most evles are better with thier missle weapons. What probably has hurt the elves most in MRQ is the reduction in the effectiveness of spells like Speedart and Multimissle. Does Arrow Trance still exist?
As for the mobility advantage. While the evles have lost some move , they probably still have a mobility advantage. For one thing, I think mobility encancing spells are more common among the elves than among the trolls, If magic is as common as in the RQ days, then probably most every elf is going to know some magic to boost his move rate.
As for Calvary, not a problem. THe best weapon for dealing with Calvary has always been...the Spear! Of course, with the low Aps spears havein MRQ this isn't reflected well, but realistically archers protected by spearmen is the bane of calvary.

Considering that they are smaller and weaker than humans, I would tend to think that humans using simular tactics would win on those advanages alone. Not to mention the other races. Regardless, no culures in Glorantha use just lightly armoured spearmen that rely on dodging as the primary defence. Now thoes tightly packed groups of leafies are going to have to use their underdeveloped parry skills, and meager bucklers to clash with other infantry units, in this example the Uz.

You are placing way too much emphaisis on SiZ and STR. Skill and speed make for a big difference, as does reach. Many culture have relied on spearmen for the bulk fo thier fighting forces. Evles wounld fight in close ranks, but spread out so as to be able to dodge.

With the way MRQ works encunberaqnce, the lighly armored evles will have a signfincant skill advantage over the Uz. Enough to make called shots a viable tactic. Throw in a few points of spells like protection an unarmored isn't so bad in MRQ. What also makes skirishers much more effective is the MRQ encumbrance rules. THe elves could focus thier missle weapons on any "fast" units (like Calvary) then just just harass the Uz , avoding melee until the trolls started to get tired.

I agree with your statement. But when pitted against the other cultures in Glorantha, nearly everyone else has a form of Calvery. I think you'll agree that all of the cultures you mentioned with the exception of mabey the swiss (i don't know) heavily used calvery to suppliment their other units. My comment was not that spearmen and archers are not viable units in battle. It was that leafy spearmen and archers when pitted against the more diverse units of nearly all other cultures, in this example the Uz, will be laughable at best without their trees to run and hide in.

No I don't agree. The cultures that I mentioned used very little Calvary. Generally, Calvary are very expensive, and are not nearly as dominating f the field of battle as you seem to think. Also, the culture I mentioned lacked the stirrup necessary to make lance charges effective. Priior to that, Calvary was best used for scouting, skirmishing, and flanking an opponent.

Again, using Earth history as an example, the bulk of troops in most armies was made of up lightly armored troops. Such troops can be very effective if used correctly. Just don't fight the other guy's fight. If the elves were dumb enough to form up in ranks and trade blows then they are not fighting thier fight. Also using more Earth history, skilled archers are devastating. With the way MRQ uses combat actions, the eves are going to get more shots off, and at a higher skill percentage, giving them a significant advantage in ranged warfare.

 

[Rasta]

Nice! I'm glad you replied. Remember this was assuming that both were on neutral territory. Thus the elves would be lined up in ranks and files on an open battlefield. That was the premise for the argument, so it's only fair to address that.

How about the skill disadvantage? Most evles are better with thier missle weapons.

That is true. They are more skilled with their bows. But not their spear attack, nor their buckler parry, and their dodge would be lower than the equivalent troll's shield parry.

So if common magic is availible to all, then yes the elves would retain their mobility bonus. But as far as combat magic is concerned. The average troll would posess a lot more battle magic, thus increasing their moral, decreasing the elves, and making their melee, missile and calvery troops that much more effective.

As for calvery, I agree that that spears are the best defence against horses. Is that true with flying wasps, or flying beetles, or giant praying mantises, or insect swarms?

STR and SIZ doesn't matter in mass formations? Please educate me on how mass formation battle works. I was under the impression that people formed lines and ranks, and it was the objective to hold this line. That this was often called a "shield wall" and the object was to march your group againts the other group and break their line, forcing their opponents to become scattered (apparently not a good thing in mass formations, though you seem to think contrary) If the elves were spread out at all. One or two heavily armored uzdo could trounce through these elves scattering their ranks. Not to mention a large group of them in a tight formations themselves.

The trolls would first send insect swarms to torment, then send waves of their expendable enlo to shield their own missile troops and to engage the elves in skirmishing and melee. Even enlo (lightly armored spearmen) would be pretty effective at fighting the elves (lightly armored spearmen)in melee combat. They would then send their highly mobile insect calvery to circle and attack the archers from behind.

If the elves broke ranks and fled from the enlo, they would be easily crushed by the calvery. (who can close very quickly)

If they stayed to fight they would be encircled then squeezed like a ripe mango. *splat goes the kre uru*

 

[Golden Wheel Dancer]

The strategic decisions of the Aldryami to only face the Uz in battle on their own terms and to only invade by extending their forests means that they will win almost all aggressive encounters they have with the Trolls. Suggesting that the trolls have a hope in hell just because they may win on open ground is like suggesting that the persians would win the battle of Marathon if the greeks couldnt think strategically.......the greeks could think strategically so the hypothitical scenario is meaningless.

So, the Aldryami would win near to 100% of aggressive encounters they have with the Uz.

Those dum pig-faces dont stand a chance.

 

[Rasta]

The strategic decisions of the Aldryami to only face the Uz in battle on their own terms and to only invade by extending their forests means that they will win almost all aggressive encounters they have with the Trolls.

Tough to grow trees under ground and in the dark though isn't it? I think the Aldryami would have a very tough time taking over a troll land using thoes tactics. The trolls would simply wait in their caves until night (when leafies don't see well) then have a fine meal.

At night, the trolls still have their strenght and size advantage, gain the missile and mobility advantage. The leafies don't stand a chance on troll lands.

Suggesting that the trolls have a hope in hell just because they may win on open ground is like suggesting that the persians would win the battle of Marathon if the greeks couldnt think strategically.......the greeks could think strategically so the hypothitical scenario is meaningless.

It was agreed that both groups would win the home battle. So the hypothitical scenario was a way for testing if they were not fighting on home turf. That has meaning.

Also it is not true that the trolls would lose all the time. I can hypothitically see how Uz could take over an elf forest.

They have swarms of insects. Insects bad for forest.
Zorak Zoran have fire magic. Fire magic bad for forest.
Uz eat everything. That is bad for forest.
Also their plant defences are good, but not perfect. A cunning general could do it. Or so say Glorantha sources.
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~gerakkag/body.html

tenk you come again

 

[Golden Wheel Dancer]

the strategic decision to fight on home turf must be seen as part of the clever elfs' ability to fight. it cannot be extracted from the scenario as it is actually part of their ability. Think of king Alfred defeating Guthrun's viking army by cleverly refusing to fight. It is meaningless to say "what if they did fight" because the strategic decision not to fight was as much of an ability as, for example, a skill in swordsmanship.

As for fire...the Aldryami surely have pyrophytes.
insects trolls etc??? haha....the elfs will let the forest do the fighting. They wont even have to be there.......and year by year their forests will magically widen until all the troll lands are engulfed and the lazy, farting Uz will have to stay hidden down their little holes.

 

[Rasta]

the strategic decision to fight on home turf must be seen as part of the clever elfs' ability to fight.

The Uz have that same tactical advantage regarding their homes. Add on the advantage to fight in complete and utter darkness, the leafies would not know which way was up or down, and who was friend or foe. Let alone which direction to fire their bow. The elves have strong plant magic. Well the Uz have strong darkness magic. They can't shoot what they can't see. Can't grow where there's no light.

It is meaningless to say "what if they did fight" because the strategic decision not to fight was as much of an ability as, for example, a skill in swordsmanship.

It still retains it's meaning as a mental exercise. It's fun to do. It wouldn't happen? Well neither would anything in RQ, ever happen. So, by your logic, is playing RQ meaningless?

As for fire...the Aldryami surely have pyrophytes.

You can resist fire only for so long leafy, before you get burnt.

insects trolls etc??? haha....the elfs will let the forest do the fighting. They wont even have to be there

Oh they would have to be there. Otherwise the Uz would merely eat the defences. What do you think a swarm of giant termites would do?

and year by year their forests will magically widen until all the troll lands are engulfed

I don't think plants grow too well in the dark. I'm sure the Uz would welcome an Aldryami creeping "invasion". That just means less time needs to be spent gathering food. More time can be spent honing fighting ability. Kind of like the Glorantha version of delivery cuisine.

 

[atgxtg]

Ooh,, things are heating up...

Let'S see where to start? How about with the formied in ranks. Assuming the hypothetical netural battleground, deployment of forces would still be up to the commaders of each force. Since the evles excel as skirmishers, I doubt that they would form up in a phalanx. Then again, I doubt the UZ are disciplined enough to do so either. The UZ would charge forward agressively, and the elves would be spread out. No Greek shield wall pushing match.

I also don't expect to see a shield wall shoving match, but more olong the lines of the spears being used to keep the enemy at bay. A spear is great for discouraging agressive charges (let the trolls take thier own damage bonus).

As for the flying calvary, yeah spears are still effective, but not as much. What really hurts the flyers is missle weapons. A disabling wing hit drops both mount and rider, for a fall that will probably inflict more damage than the elves would other wise be able to inflict. Plus if the troll and mmount fall on some upraised spears it would get even more nasty.

THe best bet for the flying calvary, is to keep out of bow range and drop rocks on the elves. Not very effective, but very demoalziing, since the elves would be hard pressed to respond.


I don't think the average troll would have more battle magic than the average elf. I think that wold be more equal, but both sides would have differernt magic. THe trolls would concentrate on agressive combat spells like bludgeoun and STR, while the elves would focus on mobility and missle enchancing magic. Both would proably have protection spells, but I would expect the evles to have a little more, since they depend on it more. Addtionally the evles have a higher INT and POW that the average Dark Troll, and so could cast more magic, and learn more magic. Elves also have those elf bows, so they will have a lot more magic points to burn.Now around the gaming table, a slight edge in POW or magic usually ins't that signficant, but in larger engagements it starts to add up. If the elves are fighting evasively, then they can make the trolls waste magic points.

Looking at your battle example, the elves have a few tricks for dealing with the insect swarms. Lightwall, for one. Effective against easly demoalized enlo too. When the missle skimishing starts, the evles have a signincant range advnage, using bows vs. slings, and a singifincant skill advantage. Since the elves know far more protective and missle magic that the enlo, the Trollkin would be the one to break. Now remember, the vast bulk of Troll forces are made up of those little, weak, enlo. So when they go, so does the chances of a troll victory. After that the elves have a numerical superiority over the Remaining UZ forces. IF the trolls charge, the elves could trhow up a hail of arrow fire that be devastating. If the elves are clever, they could use mobility reducing spells on the troll front ranks.

Another big advnatage the elves have is the number of combat actions. The elves get three action per two, meaing a big edge is doing pratically everything. ore undefended attacks. faster sepllcasting, you name it.

Now onto the underground thing. You seem to be forgetting that there are plans thaw grow in caves, as well and elves that live underground. Elf plant sense would work in such condiitions. Either way, both sides maintain a strong Home Court advantage. That's why both sides still have strongholds, they are very tough on thier home turf, but not nearly as tough when they leave it. THat is also one reason why neither expands very quickly.

Either side is capable of winning against the other on enemy ground, but not easily. Either side can win on neutral ground, if they can fight the fight they want to fight, and not the fight the enemy wants.

Looking at the sitation realisitcally (or at least a realistic as we can look at two fantasy species), both sides have strengths and weakness, and thw winner would be the one that better uses those strengths and weaknesses to thier advantage. Terrain would be crucial, as in real battles. Give one side anege, like a bridge to defend, a ravine, and so goes the battle. The evles are smart, and wouldn't try to "D&D" it with the Trolls. Likewise the Trolls wouldn't get into amissle war against the Elves. both sides would maneuver and try to fight the fight on thier own terms, or they wouldn't engage the enemy.

 

[Rasta]

Excellent! I could not have said it better myself! Great debate atgxtg! I have nothing more to add.

 

[atgxtg]

Excellent! I could not have said it better myself! Great debate atgxtg! I have nothing more to add.

Now, what if a group of Mostali wandered onto this battlefield? :shock:

 

[Rasta]

Now, what if a group of Mostali wandered onto this battlefield?

:lol: Ha Ha! Now that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[soltakss]

Trolls have trollkin spearmen organised in phalanxes and trained by Argan Argari, protected by shadows to keep them orderly in daytime.

Don't assume all trolls are kill-crazy berserkers.

They have skirmishers (Zong and Vaneeka cultists, trollkin), they have cavalry, they have infantry, light and heavy, they have airborne forces, parachuting down on spider silk and they have a shamanic class who can support magically.

They also have a number of heroquests that help against Aldryami (Tree Chopper, Zorak Zorani eating all the plants, Zorak Zoran killing Flamal, Hill of Gold against Yelmalian Elves), so they have a good chance.

Aldryami, however, have a standing army made up of a combination of Yelmalians and High King Elf/Vronkal worshippers. These are spearmen and bowmen. They have bow magic and professional training. They have Sunbright which works well against trollkin, automatically demoralising them. They use gnomes to break up the ground, reducing the impact of charging units and phalanxes. They have mobile trees who are easily the match of most trolls. They have several priestly classes and can mount shamans to counter trollish ones.

They have heroquests against trolls - Babeester Gor fighting off Zorak Zoran is the only one I can think of at the moment.

So, in the forests, Aldryami should win. In troll areas the trolls should win and in neutral open warfare, either side could win.

 

[Golden Wheel Dancer]

So, in the forests, Aldryami should win. In troll areas the trolls should win and in neutral open warfare, either side could win.

since the aldryami can more easily extend their forests than the Uz can extend their little.....er.......dens, then it means that they can more effectively manipulate to their own benefit the environment in which the aggressive exchanges take place. This tips the balance in favour of the elves. This advantage is reflected in the relative successes of the two races. The elves occupy almost an entire continent, whereas the trolls occupy.....er.....little pot holes.

besides, what are the trolls going to do? get the main part of their army - the trollkin - to whinge the elves to death??

 

[Rasta]

They also have a number of heroquests that help against Aldryami (Tree Chopper, Zorak Zorani eating all the plants, Zorak Zoran killing Flamal, Hill of Gold against Yelmalian Elves), so they have a good chance.

Really, that's cool. I did not know that. Thanks for the info Simon!

besides, what are the trolls going to do? get the main part of their army - the trollkin - to whinge the elves to death??

Ha Ha! You crack me up.

 

[Golden Wheel Dancer]

I feel that it is time to bring to an end the masquerade of logic and etiquette. It is time to express the underlying themes of our debate. I will now endeavor to do this to the best of my ability -

Aldryami rule

Uz suck


Aldryami rule

Uz suck




ELFS RULE

TROLLS SUCK