Sidebar: Forked from "EoHA what happened to it"

[kintire]

Soooooooooooo right. So it's not an issue for MGP to switch from d20 to anything else.

For Conan, I think it would be a bad idea. But I think that not because I am tribally attached to Conan d20, but because I don't think RQ will model the Conan world or style effectively. I am opposed to switching Glorantha to D20, for exactly the same reasons.

You use the system which is appropriate for the genre, and which you happen to like. D20 Conan is good for Conan. RQ is good for Glorantha.

 

[rabindranath72]

Soooooooooooo right. So it's not an issue for MGP to switch from d20 to anything else.

For Conan, I think it would be a bad idea. But I think that not because I am tribally attached to Conan d20, but because I don't think RQ will model the Conan world or style effectively. I am opposed to switching Glorantha to D20, for exactly the same reasons.

You use the system which is appropriate for the genre, and which you happen to like. D20 Conan is good for Conan. RQ is good for Glorantha.

One would think that Lankhmar, Slaine and Elric, all clear examples of S&S, would speak quite differently of what RQ can do.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Its all about freakin' game systems. No one is insulting the way you live or your personal morals

But they are. I've been called a fanatic for doing nothing more than continue to argue my side after the other party felt I should have seen that they were right by then. My fault was that I was still arguing: and when I pointed out that so were they that slid quietly by. A Certain Poster has repeatedly referred to "D20 terrorists" and described those who like d20 as closeminded, brainwashed and even brain dead. People who like d20 are constantly being insulted, then called rude; having their threads hijacked, then accused of "terrorism"; receiving rants that boil down to "I don't like this system, so its RUBBISH!!!!!!11!" and then being accused of lack of objectivity... the list goes on. I am fed up of being held to standards the ranter flagrantly break, and I am fed up of the fact that you cannot have any thread about problems or corrections about the system with being told you're stupid for playing anyway, and the solution is to switch.

If youre tired of hearing criticism of it, I would suggest, rather than us Runequesters going somewhere else, maybe you should try other boards.

And this, right here, is perhaps the most revealing remark about just what is going on here. Lets skate lightly over the absurd suggestion that we should leave the d20 Conan board to people who hate it and take our like for it elsewhere: lets focus on "us Runequesters".

What's a "Runequester"? Is it, perhaps, someone who has been playing Runequest since 1992? Someone who has been to both Tentacles and Convulsion several times? Someone who bought Mongoose Runequest as soon as it came out, and has been GMing one campaign in it and playing another ever since? Would that be a "Runequester?"

Well, that's me. Who has suggested I go somewhere else?

But I suspect that's not what you mean at all. I remember the dayss when being a "Runequester", or an "AD&Der" meant a good deal more commitment than that. It meant using that system, that system ALONE and championing it against all comers. I remember when White Dwarf (back when it was an RPG magazine) ran a RQ adventure, and the letters page next month was boiling with AD&Ders complaining about pandering to "minority systems". Any suggestion that an enemy system was worth ANYTHING was like defecting to the Soviet Union.

Herve comes from those days, and I suspect Yrkoon does to. But guys, we've moved on. Those days are gone. Accepting that a system iss good for one genre does not mean betraying your own. I am a Runequester, and a D20er. And, indeed, a 4th editioner, and a FUDGEer and a 7th Seaer and a Legend of the Five Ringser and a Feng Shuier. Less recently I have been a Weapons of the Godser and a Riddle of Steeler and a GURPSer and a number-of-other-thingser.

What we wnat is not for you"Runequesters" to leave, we want you to join the 21st century where you can pick systems that fit genres, play every game in a different system, and you don't have to get tribal about it any more.

Well, I wasnt using the term 'Runequesters' seriously, it was just a partizan term for the brewing argument. Ive heard people slag off RQ on these boards, 'Duck-men blow chunks' was a classic, but I dont get all arse about it. My post was a direct reply to this;

'I am really surprized that the moderators on the Mongoose boards allow so many threads about how Conan should use a different system. If you don't like the Mongoose version, go play something else, and talk about it somewhere else.'

Cant remember who posted that though. As if youre not allowed to discuss bleedin' games systems on the boards set up for that very purpose. What rubbish! The arguments are partly the fault of Mongoose, they started with D20 products, dropped it like a hot potato like everyone else, but didnt convert their most popular 'evergreen' system to their new favourite house system, merely through a lack of timing and the concern that they may disrupt sales. They didnt have any quarms about teeing off Slaine players, simply because of the lack of numbers. It is, obviously, a quirk of fate that has seen Conan stick with this strange anachronistic convoluted system that is the OGL.

As I say, Ive played all of these games, the OGL is annoyingly old school but I will also say that RQ has its frustrations too. Im not going to cry because some people prefer one over the other, and Im not going to take it personally just because someone says anyone who plays RQ is mental.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I'll go further...It is a strange quirk of fate that Mongoose have kept Conan tied to the OGL, not because they, themselves, think it the ideal system for Conan, but because they merely dont want to hack off you guys. I hear that Mongoose will 'stick with the OGL', but I dont hear them saying, 'We think the OGL is the best system to use for the Hyborian Age', because, quite frankly, it is not.

 

[Vortigern]

It just seems a sad state of affairs all around to me.

I can easily see the umbrage of an avid d20 fan being treated as 'less than' by someone who prefers something, god 'anything', else. As a matter of fact I got flipped off the other day by a good friend ( an avid D&D fan ) over a comment I made to the effect that 'D&D is the training wheels RPG'. All in good fun between us, but the point stands.

Nobody likes to have their favorite stuff stomped on by someone else.

This is all perfectly understandable on both sides to me.

I just find it rather unfortunate that there seems to be such an extreme divide between the players of the various systems here. Now, some of this is 'foot in mouth' syndrome, but some of it is also people being blatantly flippant and rude.

We gamers have not always been noted for our tact or humility at times however.

But hey. It is the internet, and... I would hope that people could get over the fact that someone, somewhere on the planet, doesn't agree with them. Manners, people? They are good things.

Myself... I think that Conan is the best d20 system I've ever played. I honestly ignored the game for rather long time 'because' it was d20. That is a big red flag for me. Then I picked up a book in a store one day ( due to my love of Conan, rather than d20 ) and was flipping through it... and got hooked. I won't play anything else that is d20, because I just don't enjoy them. So I strongly endorse the quality of the Mongoose mod. of d20 that went into building the Conan line, even if I don't generally favor the system. It pulled me into buying a d20 product, which is no small feat.

That said, I also have recently been a convert to BRP thanks to Chaosium's generic BRP book. ( Which I do recommend. ) And... from my reading of that generic book, the system does appear astoundingly tailorable to different levels of 'grit' or 'epic'-ness. In fact I grow more and more curious about the Elric line, and probably will be buying into that shortly. Anyway, that BRP/MGRQ could do the game justice in the hands of Mongoose, I have no doubt. And I would probably prefer that version, if it were done with the same tender loving care that the d20 mod. was. In fact I probably would have gotten interested and started buying books sooner than I did.

As is I continue to be something of a fan of the line, yet it doesn't quite achieve my all time favorite list due to the system. A well executed redesign into BRP would probably change that, and make me want to purchase anything new put out in the new version.

But that is just my personal preference.

 

[tarkhan bey]

I like both Runequest and OGL. I think that it very much depends on your playing style as to which is more suitable for Sword and Sorcery/Heroic fantasy.
I am a huge fan of the Conan line and of Slaine RPG. I have ran Conan games using both OGL and a makeshift D100 using the chaosium Elric rules. Both were excellent but differed very much in feel. THe D100 was grimmer and grittier, players were less inclined to initiate combat and thief type characters and adventurers were better suited( in my opinion) to this ruleset.
With Conan OGL and Slaine D20, the heroic hewing of scores of your enemies(and not thinking it too much) is more the order of the day. Players wouldn't think twice about starting a fight and finishing it.
Warrior games and campaigns probably play out better using the D20/OGL system.(once again, an opinion only)

 

[Supplement Four]

Myself... I think that Conan is the best d20 system I've ever played. I honestly ignored the game for rather long time 'because' it was d20. That is a big red flag for me. Then I picked up a book in a store one day ( due to my love of Conan, rather than d20 ) and was flipping through it... and got hooked. I won't play anything else that is d20, because I just don't enjoy them. So I strongly endorse the quality of the Mongoose mod. of d20 that went into building the Conan line, even if I don't generally favor the system. It pulled me into buying a d20 product, which is no small feat.

This paragraph is an exact replica of my experience--so, close, that I could have written this myself.

I don't, and probably never will, play any other d20 games. But, I have a strong love of Conan, and Mongoose's version of d20 is the best version I've ever seen. It takes the things that I think are "wrong" about d20, changes them, and makes them "make sense".

Bravo to Mongoose for a job not just well done, but exceptionally well done.

The Mongoose d20, sans the Conan background, is brilliant. Together, I think they're a non-stoppable team.

 

[rabindranath72]

The Mongoose d20, sans the Conan background, is brilliant. Together, I think they're a non-stoppable team.

That's 90% of the SRD. What's so different apart from the lack of magic and demihumans? If you use the optional rules from Unearthed Arcana, the 90% goes to 95% if not more.

 

[Azgulor]

I'll go further...It is a strange quirk of fate that Mongoose have kept Conan tied to the OGL, not because they, themselves, think it the ideal system for Conan, but because they merely dont want to hack off you guys. I hear that Mongoose will 'stick with the OGL', but I dont hear them saying, 'We think the OGL is the best system to use for the Hyborian Age', because, quite frankly, it is not.

Nor do I hear them saying it's NOT the best system for the Hyborian Age. I don't wish to offend, but your paragraph is the perfect example of what hacks so many of us OGL fans off.

You don't KNOW the whys and whatnots of Mongoose's decisions any more than I do. You're stating your opinion as though it's a universal truth -- it's not.

The counter argument would be, the number of OGL fans vastly outweighs the few vocal non-OGL fans that post on these boards so it would be idiocy for Mongoose to abandon their fan base.

Now I don't know that is the case anymore than what you've cited. Even though, logically, my scenario has the higher probability - I'm not saying that it's an objective fact.

As I've stated (more times than I care to remember), if you don't like Conan OGL, that's cool. But just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't emulate the source material well, doesn't depict the Hyborean Age well, or doesn't sell well - all it means is YOU don't like it. There are (apparently) numerous fans who believe the opposing viewpoint - that Conan OGL is a great game for playing Conan and Hyborian Age games.

These threads would be 1000% more constructive if people talked about their game, campaign, characters, etc. But someone within the anti-OGL crowd always has to take a shot at the Conan RPG. Then someone pipes in saying "Hey waitaminute, I don't agree.", and we get multiple posts of how the "OGL Zealots" are "attacking" the RuneQuest fans. It's BS.

Now this is just me - but stay with me for a minute:

Chances are, if you don't like Conan OGL, supplements that are primarily game mechanics (Hyboria's F- series, Warrior's Companion, etc.) probably aren't going to do it for you. If the title of a mechanics-heavy supplement is in the name of the thread -- you might want to read a different thread. I know when I read threads about other RPGs - it's to mine them for ideas or learn about the game. I don't go to them with an eye to singing the praises of OGL games, trying to convert them to the one true game, or piss everyone off by attacking them for their opinions.

If the title is Conan, Hyboria, REH, or campaign themed (again, usually the thread title's a giveaway), I'd love to hear your ideas on campaigns, scenario plots, and Conan/Hyborian lore.

If you can't help but sing the praises of RQ over Conan OGL, wish to rail against the tyranny of d20/OGL games, etc., might I direct you to the forum named RuneQuest/Hawkmoon/Elric. I may be TOTALLY off base here, but I'm willing to bet that fans of RuneQuest talk about RQ mechanics in that forum. (And probably without those d20/OGL lovers peeing in the pool...)

 

[Azgulor]

The Mongoose d20, sans the Conan background, is brilliant. Together, I think they're a non-stoppable team.

That's 90% of the SRD. What's so different apart from the lack of magic and demihumans? If you use the optional rules from Unearthed Arcana, the 90% goes to 95% if not more.

While there are concepts and ideas that are similar (Defense, armor as DR, etc.), the difference is that Conan OGL fans believe the implementation of those concepts are SUPERIOR in Conan than in Unearthed Arcana. Additionally, there are other mechanics, (codes of honor, fate points, combat maneuvers, the sorcery system, etc.) that can't be found in Unearthed Arcana, so this "Conan's just 90% of the SRD" doesn't hold water with the Conan RPG fans. One could argue (and I have in the past) that it's also a tad insulting to Mongoose to frame it that way, but I'll just ignore that one for now.

 

[rabindranath72]

The Mongoose d20, sans the Conan background, is brilliant. Together, I think they're a non-stoppable team.

That's 90% of the SRD. What's so different apart from the lack of magic and demihumans? If you use the optional rules from Unearthed Arcana, the 90% goes to 95% if not more.

While there are concepts and ideas that are similar (Defense, armor as DR, etc.), the difference is that Conan OGL fans believe the implementation of those concepts are SUPERIOR in Conan than in Unearthed Arcana. Additionally, there are other mechanics, (codes of honor, fate points, combat maneuvers, the sorcery system, etc.) that can't be found in Unearthed Arcana, so this "Conan's just 90% of the SRD" doesn't hold water with the Conan RPG fans. One could argue (and I have in the past) that it's also a tad insulting to Mongoose to frame it that way, but I'll just ignore that one for now.

You can ignore what you choose to; I do not care, sincerely
I do not see WHY pointing the similarity with the base rules should be meant as an insult; unless those who cry foul realise that it's exactly due to those rules that d20 Conan is despised by detractors.

In particular I was referring to the core mechanics, not the add-ons (which HAVE changed in the different d20 games, e.g. Slaine, Wheel of Time). Just like Slaine referred to the PHB for everything except setting-specific bits (and people DID use the Slaine core ideas to play Conan before Conan was printed).

All the things which people most dislike about d20 games are unfortunately there: the skills system, the feats system, the combat system, and the "engineered" way these pieces interact (types system for bonuses, strongly exception-based design etc.) These were considered strength of the system when Conan was designed (more on this later).

But I suppose those which love d20 Conan love it also for (or perhaps exactly because of) these things. And those who do not like it, it's exactly for those things.

I add that I was one of the original playtesters (and some of my ideas are in the rules now, for example the initiative system), the NDA prohibits me to reveal some design choices; but it suffices to say that it was EXACTLY the similarity with the base D&D ideas and system that was seen as a STRENGTH of d20 Conan (not as an OFFENSE; although it seems you would prefer that d20 Conan was not associated with D&D). Now, the air of superiority of some people who exalt d20 Conan and piss on D&D is totally BS. Why? Because other systems were attempted to handle hit points, hit dice progression, level caps, lethality etc. But in the end, it was the D&D mechanics which were preferred. You know why? For compatibility reason, and because it worked well in practice. Mongoose was selling tons of other d20 products; and there is an article in an early number of S&P that points out EXACTLY these facts, and why you would want to use D&D products in d20 Conan.

Someone on the other thread quite wisely claimed that he liked d20 Conan because he could use the tons of other books he had. And he is damn right! And I too was originally of the same idea; I never owned more than the three core D&D books, but it was nice that I could take critters from the Monster Manual and use them in my Conan games (devils and demons in particular).

So, it would be nice if people had some "historical perspective" before claiming that relationships with d20 D&D do not exist, or that they are "offensive". They exist, they were sought after, and they were valued by Mongoose.

 

[Vortigern]

Mmm. It is I think better than I've seen executed elsewhere in the d20 world, but the point that it is still essentially a d20 game, and therefore not so radically different does stand.

There is no way to cut that percentage down too far without ending up with an entirely different type of game, in a different system. The core elements are still part of the equation.

I think part of the difference there is the perception of an OGL/d20 fan vs. those of someone who plays multiple different systems. If you are primarily a d20 fan the variance between some of the different versions of it might appear night and day. To a person who plays an assortment of games they might seem merely thematically different while still essentially being d20.

Which is the point I think Rabindranath72 was trying to make originally. It is still essentially a d20 game and therefore not so very radically different in 'most', or even I dare say the 'vast majority', of it's substance.

The tweaks that were made however I readily grant have some dramatic impact on the execution and feel of the game.

 

[rabindranath72]

Mmm. It is I think better than I've seen executed elsewhere in the d20 world, but the point that it is still essentially a d20 game, and therefore not so radically different does stand.

There is no way to cut that percentage down too far without ending up with an entirely different type of game, in a different system. The core elements are still part of the equation.

I think part of the difference there is the perception of an OGL/d20 fan vs. those of someone who plays multiple different systems. If you are primarily a d20 fan the variance between some of the different versions of it might appear night and day. To a person who plays an assortment of games they might seem merely thematically different while still essentially being d20.

Which is the point I think Rabindranath72 was trying to make originally. It is still essentially a d20 game and therefore not so very radically different in 'most', or even I dare say the 'vast majority', of it's substance.

The tweaks that were made however I readily grant have some dramatic impact on the execution and feel of the game.

Exactly. But it seems that many people are ashamed to be associated with d20 D&D, or seem to openly deny any connection between d20 Conan and D&D. And when you mention this, they cry foul or get offended. I do not know why it is so; I wonder whether these people ever played d20 D&D or other d20 games.
It was a conscious design decision to make d20 Conan as compatible with other d20 products as possible. We dissected the SRD when playtesting the game, and actually the only things which were playtested were the additions, not the fundamentals. Never, ever it was discussed if the skills system had to change, if the feats system had to change, if the exception-based design had to change etc. (which, I repeat, are the things which most people do not like about d20).

The use of the OGL instead of the d20 mark is not to denote an essential difference in rules. The things that actually make the game worthy of that "OGL" or "d20" mark, are the ones on which D&D was built: skills, feats, races, classes, levels, exception-based design, type-based bonuses.

 

[Azgulor]

Lord Almighty, stop being so pathetically dense!

Of course there are similarities between D&D and OGL games - since the OGL uses D&D as a baseline. However, having played D&D & Conan, the two do not play the same way - not by a long shot.

OGL games demonstrate that the d20 baseline can be modified to support a variety of genres & play styles. I take issue with the innuendo that Conan is nothing more than D&D with some UA variants mixed in. If I DID take some UA variants and mixed them with standard D&D, I guarantee that it doesn't play like Conan -- because I've played in those games. Is it closer than stock D&D, of course. Is it superior or equivalent to the Conan RPG? No.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I also play GURPS, Alternity, Trinity, Star Frontiers, WHFRP2, RoleMaster, HARNMaster, and Earthdawn, and the old Basic/Expert D&D.

 

[Supplement Four]

The Mongoose d20, sans the Conan background, is brilliant. Together, I think they're a non-stoppable team.

That's 90% of the SRD. What's so different apart from the lack of magic and demihumans? If you use the optional rules from Unearthed Arcana, the 90% goes to 95% if not more.

The changes aren't huge, but they are the touches needed to make Conan's version of d20 excellent.

One big change, I'll note, is the level cap. Doing this one thing keeps the universe from scaling.

For example, in a 1-3 level D&D Dungeon, the barkeep might be a 0 level fighter, the guards 1st level fighters, and the sargent-at-arms a 4th level fighter.

Then, you play a 6-10 level D&D Dungeon, and all of a sudden, the barkeep is a 4th level fighter, the guards are all 6th level fighters, and the sergeant-at-arms is 12th level.

That doesn't fly in Conan. The entire universe is on the same scale. Typical guards are the same level no matter if your character is 1st level or 18th level.

That's a real nifty improvement that I always thought should be implemented in D&D. The entire universe uses the same scale, so, until you're capable to taking on those guards, you'd better watch out. And, once you're a hero, the average guard will be no problem to you.

 

[rabindranath72]

The Mongoose d20, sans the Conan background, is brilliant. Together, I think they're a non-stoppable team.

That's 90% of the SRD. What's so different apart from the lack of magic and demihumans? If you use the optional rules from Unearthed Arcana, the 90% goes to 95% if not more.

The changes aren't huge, but they are the touches needed to make Conan's version of d20 excellent.

One big change, I'll note, is the level cap. Doing this one thing keeps the universe from scaling.

For example, in a 1-3 level D&D Dungeon, the barkeep might be a 0 level fighter, the guards 1st level fighters, and the sargent-at-arms a 4th level fighter.

Then, you play a 6-10 level D&D Dungeon, and all of a sudden, the barkeep is a 4th level fighter, the guards are all 6th level fighters, and the sergeant-at-arms is 12th level.

That doesn't fly in Conan. The entire universe is on the same scale. Typical guards are the same level no matter if your character is 1st level or 18th level.

That's a real nifty improvement that I always thought should be implemented in D&D. The entire universe uses the same scale, so, until you're capable to taking on those guards, you'd better watch out. And, once you're a hero, the average guard will be no problem to you.

This is an example of a campaign adjustment, not something dictated by the rules. Nowhere it is written in the 3e DMG that commoners, warriors etc. should scale as the PCs (if ever there was the problem that a DM had to look into the DMG to understand it). That's patently ludicrous.

 

[rabindranath72]

Lord Almighty, stop being so pathetically dense!

Of course there are similarities between D&D and OGL games - since the OGL uses D&D as a baseline. However, having played D&D & Conan, the two do not play the same way - not by a long shot.

OGL games demonstrate that the d20 baseline can be modified to support a variety of genres & play styles. I take issue with the innuendo that Conan is nothing more than D&D with some UA variants mixed in. If I DID take some UA variants and mixed them with standard D&D, I guarantee that it doesn't play like Conan -- because I've played in those games. Is it closer than stock D&D, of course. Is it superior or equivalent to the Conan RPG? No.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I also play GURPS, Alternity, Trinity, Star Frontiers, WHFRP2, RoleMaster, HARNMaster, and Earthdawn, and the old Basic/Expert D&D.

I am pathetically dense? From you it sounds like a compliment! At least now there is a bit of historical perspective on the whys and hows some things are as they are in d20 Conan.
Oh, and the correct word is not "superior" (which it seems you like to use a lot around here) but "different". Otherwise D&D lovers might take issues with your innuendo that they are playing an inferior game. And I might be tempted to say that RQ is superior to d20 Conan, you know? :lol: Perhaps it's YOU taking issues with imaginary "innuendos". Geez. :roll: :lol:

These threads are starting giving me lots of laughs!

 

[kintire]

All the things which people most dislike about d20 games are unfortunately there: the skills system, the feats system, the combat system, and the "engineered" way these pieces interact (types system for bonuses, strongly exception-based design etc.) These were considered strength of the system when Conan was designed (more on this later).

But I suppose those which love d20 Conan love it also for (or perhaps exactly because of) these things. And those who do not like it, it's exactly for those things.

As long as those are likes and dislikes, no one can disagree. Its when people start claiming that d20 Conan is objectively a bad system that you have to call them on it. And I have done, and read the answers carefully, but no one has come up with any serious system problems, just points they don't happen to like.

Also, I think you've missed one of the most vital tweaks, apart from defence scaling with level. They changed the magic system, which is the thing I like least about d20.

 

[rabindranath72]

All the things which people most dislike about d20 games are unfortunately there: the skills system, the feats system, the combat system, and the "engineered" way these pieces interact (types system for bonuses, strongly exception-based design etc.) These were considered strength of the system when Conan was designed (more on this later).

But I suppose those which love d20 Conan love it also for (or perhaps exactly because of) these things. And those who do not like it, it's exactly for those things.

As long as those are likes and dislikes, no one can disagree. Its when people start claiming that d20 Conan is objectively a bad system that you have to call them on it. And I have done, and read the answers carefully, but no one has come up with any serious system problems, just points they don't happen to like.

Also, I think you've missed one of the most vital tweaks, apart from defence scaling with level. They changed the magic system, which is the thing I like least about d20.

It's not "problems" of the system (i.e. that it's broken, at least at low to middle levels), it's just that for many people (me included) is too much focused on rules and exceptions.

I did not include magic since I have no issues with magic as is in d20 D&D; it's there because D&D has always had a Vancian magic system. It's just a piece you can remove without altering the core (skills, feats, combat, typed bonuses etc.), as it's been done in Wheel of Time, Slaine and Conan, to name just three games.

 

[Azgulor]

Lord Almighty, stop being so pathetically dense!

Of course there are similarities between D&D and OGL games - since the OGL uses D&D as a baseline. However, having played D&D & Conan, the two do not play the same way - not by a long shot.

OGL games demonstrate that the d20 baseline can be modified to support a variety of genres & play styles. I take issue with the innuendo that Conan is nothing more than D&D with some UA variants mixed in. If I DID take some UA variants and mixed them with standard D&D, I guarantee that it doesn't play like Conan -- because I've played in those games. Is it closer than stock D&D, of course. Is it superior or equivalent to the Conan RPG? No.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I also play GURPS, Alternity, Trinity, Star Frontiers, WHFRP2, RoleMaster, HARNMaster, and Earthdawn, and the old Basic/Expert D&D.

I am pathetically dense? From you it sounds like a compliment! At least now there is a bit of historical perspective on the whys and hows some things are as they are in d20 Conan.
Oh, and the correct word is not "superior" (which it seems you like to use a lot around here) but "different". Otherwise D&D lovers might take issues with your innuendo that they are playing an inferior game. And I might be tempted to say that RQ is superior to d20 Conan, you know? :lol: Perhaps it's YOU taking issues with imaginary "innuendos". Geez. :roll: :lol:

These threads are starting giving me lots of laughs!

Actually, what I said was that the Conan RPG fans find the Mongoose implementation superior to similar concepts in Unearthed Arcana or some of the core rules in D&D.

Since I was talking about the subjective opinion of Conan RPG fans and not presenting my opinion as an objective fact (like others I could mention), superior is perfectly applicable (IMO).

Also, I'm pretty direct. If I felt a game was inferior, I would state that I found it to be so and wouldn't need the innuendo. Unlike the pro-RQ camp that comes here to bash the Conan RPG, however, I haven't taken any shots at RQ itself. I've only stated my preference for the OGL implementation and argued for the continuation of the Conan RPG using those rules.

Kudos on being a playtester. I can only hope you used a more discerning eye to understanding the rules and giving them a fair shot than what's exhibited by your ability to read, understand, and respond to forum posts.
It must have been a chore to be a playtester for a system you dislike so much, but what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, right?