Should the MI use tanks
- Thread starter MaxSteiner
- Start date
Well, having read through all of this blather . . . here is my take on things:
MI - no tanks specifically no MBT does not fit their tactical role.
Possdible MBT and IFV for Colonial troops (aka national guard second line troops).
I consider only the original Robert Heinlein source material in my choice, "Starship Troopers" only.
In the novel "Cap Troopers" have a range of a goodly number of kilometers, not one click, individual trooper spacing within a platoon formation is stated as more than 100 meters up to a kilometer or more.
MI in the novel are used primarily as a deep-strike hit and get unit.
Further in the novel specific mention is made regarding the ability to recharge the combat suits and for the troopers to stay in their suits for several days at a time. This specifically occurs during the sequence where Sgt Zim goes into the tunnels and captures a Brain Bug.
Not the size of a Mack truck by the way, because he is able to carry it in his arms.
Anyway, for tank battles etc. I prefer FOW, in general I prefer the original rules for SST.
MI - no tanks specifically no MBT does not fit their tactical role.
Possdible MBT and IFV for Colonial troops (aka national guard second line troops).
I consider only the original Robert Heinlein source material in my choice, "Starship Troopers" only.
In the novel "Cap Troopers" have a range of a goodly number of kilometers, not one click, individual trooper spacing within a platoon formation is stated as more than 100 meters up to a kilometer or more.
MI in the novel are used primarily as a deep-strike hit and get unit.
Further in the novel specific mention is made regarding the ability to recharge the combat suits and for the troopers to stay in their suits for several days at a time. This specifically occurs during the sequence where Sgt Zim goes into the tunnels and captures a Brain Bug.
Not the size of a Mack truck by the way, because he is able to carry it in his arms.
Anyway, for tank battles etc. I prefer FOW, in general I prefer the original rules for SST.
Sight said:
But they are inspired by the book, sure they might not hold a candle to the suits in the book but thats for game balance, do you really want to play a game where you have literally one model on the board as i doubt the board represents more than a mile and a half.
look at 40k, space marines are meant to be super tough compared to a normal human, then why is the latter T3 and the former T4, not much of a super difference there is there.
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
Sight said:
Just as a nitpick, when you say anime do you mean the actual anime or the CGI series? Because Uchuu no Senki, the actual Japanese SST cartoon is about the only source Mongoose didn't use for the game. (Shame because the Marauder designs are sweet)
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
It's never been licensed, but a fansub group has recently come into copies, so there may or may not be episodes out there if you know where to look (or who to PM)
I really can't wait, though from what I hear it's not THAT close to the novel - just closer than the CGI or live-action. The Bugs are replaced with a plant life-form, and Johnny and Carmen have a relationship closer to the live-action movie than the novel. The main thing is the Marauders, which as I said looks fantastic.
http://www.trooperpx.com
I really can't wait, though from what I hear it's not THAT close to the novel - just closer than the CGI or live-action. The Bugs are replaced with a plant life-form, and Johnny and Carmen have a relationship closer to the live-action movie than the novel. The main thing is the Marauders, which as I said looks fantastic.
http://www.trooperpx.com
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
Tha statement made no sense to me whatsoever
(I'm a huge fan of the early 80's Studio Nue design asthetic. The volume of Macross toys in my posession borders on the insane)
(I'm a huge fan of the early 80's Studio Nue design asthetic. The volume of Macross toys in my posession borders on the insane)
MI using tanks just doesnt seem right to me, they are supposed to be infantry that drop onto planets take and hold. with the proper suits as per the book they never needed tanks (in fact i think rico in that says a single suit could take on a whole tank company).
yes you have the LAMI or whatever they are from the film, which are a little bit silly IMO but if they needed hard hitting they got aerospace assets to give close support, and they carry man portable nukes. not exactly a need for tanks there. and again they tend to get dropped or airlifted to the area so dont even need APCs.
yes you have the LAMI or whatever they are from the film, which are a little bit silly IMO but if they needed hard hitting they got aerospace assets to give close support, and they carry man portable nukes. not exactly a need for tanks there. and again they tend to get dropped or airlifted to the area so dont even need APCs.
Let's see...
The Book suits, and I have to keep reminding people of this it seems, are costly to run as a garrison force. Secondary forces (seeing as there are multiple factions within the SICON military structure in the book) would probably have cheaper to run pieces of equipment more in line with modern conventional forces.
LAMI, Katadder, only had air support if they had control of the skies, necessitating heavy expenditure of ordinance to achieve said air dominance. Combine that with something that should be obvious to anyone: Nukes are NOT close in support weapons. Notice the distance and the amount of effort that went into not getting fried by their own weapon.
If anything, one of the biggest things that come up when watching the movies is (besides the OMGWTFBBQ, not true to book nonesense) the lack of heavy equipment like IFVs and APCs. Air-dropping only works when no one is SHOOTING at you. And with the Viking Landing boats, if you loose one, you can possibly loose and entire platoon's worth of LAMI with one hit.
The Book suits, and I have to keep reminding people of this it seems, are costly to run as a garrison force. Secondary forces (seeing as there are multiple factions within the SICON military structure in the book) would probably have cheaper to run pieces of equipment more in line with modern conventional forces.
LAMI, Katadder, only had air support if they had control of the skies, necessitating heavy expenditure of ordinance to achieve said air dominance. Combine that with something that should be obvious to anyone: Nukes are NOT close in support weapons. Notice the distance and the amount of effort that went into not getting fried by their own weapon.
If anything, one of the biggest things that come up when watching the movies is (besides the OMGWTFBBQ, not true to book nonesense) the lack of heavy equipment like IFVs and APCs. Air-dropping only works when no one is SHOOTING at you. And with the Viking Landing boats, if you loose one, you can possibly loose and entire platoon's worth of LAMI with one hit.
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
The movie illustrates Hiro's last point very well, with plenty of Vikings being shot down as they dropped onto Big K.
Picture it...you're trying to shift a platoon element to a new position.. there are three ways to do it.
A> Aircraft (Viking, Slingshot, Skyhook
B> On Foot
C> Vehicle (Pegasus Combat Skimmer, Gecko, etc)
Now, depending on your situation, the Aircraft is the best option... but if the bugs have AA in the area, it'll turn into a crap-shoot. Add in fliers....
On foot you have the possibility of Arachnid 'infantry' units and fliers.
Vehicles, same as foot, but you can out-run them unless the terrain is pretty prohibitive...
A> Aircraft (Viking, Slingshot, Skyhook
B> On Foot
C> Vehicle (Pegasus Combat Skimmer, Gecko, etc)
Now, depending on your situation, the Aircraft is the best option... but if the bugs have AA in the area, it'll turn into a crap-shoot. Add in fliers....
On foot you have the possibility of Arachnid 'infantry' units and fliers.
Vehicles, same as foot, but you can out-run them unless the terrain is pretty prohibitive...
Gauntlet-
Banded Mongoose
I think we keep coming back to the fact that an APC fits well and efficiently for certain forces... in many forces...
1. LAMI- when AA is too great or Air Power unavailable or general garrisons.
2. PAMI- Mobile command centers, duration battle recharge stations, or general garrisons.
These make up the largest portions of the SICON military arguably and thereby make allot of sense for us to have various forms of APCs, including wheeled and tracked.
The Pegasus is insufficient for APC duty aside from high speed or recon. Its open topped, vulnerable, and lightly armed, and expensive in fuel presumably. Also I doubt it can operate in high-gravity environs.
Whereas the traditional APC would avoid all this.
But I don't think we all consider that to be a 'Tank' the Tank in most people's eyes and ears is the Main Battle Tank, which we have little to no justification for in terms of fire power in the SST universe.
Marauders, Exo Suits, air bombardment, PAMI squads all have virtually the same fire power of a MBT, and superior mobility/agility, but inferior durational speed. Due to drop capsules durational speed is not usually an issue, and air drops are very easy and affordable to the federation, I would argue that air and orbital traffic is very very normal for them.
As to armor, I would wager that when faced with the mobility issue the armor issue evens out, especially against the bugs, where they could swarm a tank up closer than the tank could possibly fight back, crawl over and under every portion and tear it to pieces.
Whereas the various power suits can jump away into the air...
I think the tank lovers need to accept that a Main Battle Tank should only really come up for forces that just can't hope to have the technology of suits, such as independent non-federation colonies, or militias given antique equipment. Hardly something we need models for specifically. Such forces should be severely hampered by a lack of 'real' support from the MI.
Whereas the tank lovers can drown a little of their woe in the fact that we really should have a well developed APC with 2-3 variants for both PAMI and LAMI.
1. LAMI- when AA is too great or Air Power unavailable or general garrisons.
2. PAMI- Mobile command centers, duration battle recharge stations, or general garrisons.
These make up the largest portions of the SICON military arguably and thereby make allot of sense for us to have various forms of APCs, including wheeled and tracked.
The Pegasus is insufficient for APC duty aside from high speed or recon. Its open topped, vulnerable, and lightly armed, and expensive in fuel presumably. Also I doubt it can operate in high-gravity environs.
Whereas the traditional APC would avoid all this.
But I don't think we all consider that to be a 'Tank' the Tank in most people's eyes and ears is the Main Battle Tank, which we have little to no justification for in terms of fire power in the SST universe.
Marauders, Exo Suits, air bombardment, PAMI squads all have virtually the same fire power of a MBT, and superior mobility/agility, but inferior durational speed. Due to drop capsules durational speed is not usually an issue, and air drops are very easy and affordable to the federation, I would argue that air and orbital traffic is very very normal for them.
As to armor, I would wager that when faced with the mobility issue the armor issue evens out, especially against the bugs, where they could swarm a tank up closer than the tank could possibly fight back, crawl over and under every portion and tear it to pieces.
Whereas the various power suits can jump away into the air...
I think the tank lovers need to accept that a Main Battle Tank should only really come up for forces that just can't hope to have the technology of suits, such as independent non-federation colonies, or militias given antique equipment. Hardly something we need models for specifically. Such forces should be severely hampered by a lack of 'real' support from the MI.
Whereas the tank lovers can drown a little of their woe in the fact that we really should have a well developed APC with 2-3 variants for both PAMI and LAMI.
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
As a quick handwave, one coudl always say the MI only normally deploy APCs in a strategic role, so they don't appear on the battlefield.