Shock and Surprise
- Thread starter Voltumna
- Start date
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
That is up to the GM as I can see situations warranting either one. The GM should call it as he sees fit, or that will help create a better story.
I was also a little confused by the description of Shock. It never states whether or not there is a surprise round after the "shocking action/event". I guess there many not be since potential enemies are already somewhat aware of those around them.
I guess at a minimum (without a surprise round) you cause unaware opponents a -4 to their initiative.
What about if combat has already started, and a thief-type sneaks up on the evil sorcerer from behind (makes his hide and move silent checks the whole way)? By the rules, he cannot deal sneak attack damage unless he flanks, but yet, he is unaware. I brought this up back when I was palying D20 3.5; I can see both sides of it though.
I guess at a minimum (without a surprise round) you cause unaware opponents a -4 to their initiative.
What about if combat has already started, and a thief-type sneaks up on the evil sorcerer from behind (makes his hide and move silent checks the whole way)? By the rules, he cannot deal sneak attack damage unless he flanks, but yet, he is unaware. I brought this up back when I was palying D20 3.5; I can see both sides of it though.
Evil_Trevor
Mongoose
These things are totally situation dependant and to some extent dependant on G.m. and game I would say shock could cause someone to 'freeze' (if they fail the roll) and therefore give the oppenant (if this what causes the shock) the chance to attack as if in a surprise round, but, there is always a but,
If the shock is caused by something other than your current or a new attacking opponent for example ---
Whilst fighting bandits in thier lair, an abondond mausolium, the fighting disturbes a sleeping Vampire, uh-oh. The vampire makes a sudden and shocking appearence, he is however assesing the situation and does not immediatly attack anyone. Everyone makes a shock check which you the p.c. fail and the bandit you are fighting doesn't, he uses the distraction to run for the exit without provoking an AoO while you just stand there.
If the shock is caused by something other than your current or a new attacking opponent for example ---
Whilst fighting bandits in thier lair, an abondond mausolium, the fighting disturbes a sleeping Vampire, uh-oh. The vampire makes a sudden and shocking appearence, he is however assesing the situation and does not immediatly attack anyone. Everyone makes a shock check which you the p.c. fail and the bandit you are fighting doesn't, he uses the distraction to run for the exit without provoking an AoO while you just stand there.
Trodax said:
I'd say the sorcerer is definitely flat-footed, as he can't defend against a threat he is unaware of.
Thinking about that, you could make a very sneaky and deadly thief, if you took the thief special ability Without a Trace, and the feat Ambush, both from Hyboria's fallen. You would have better chance of sneaking unseen-unheard to the side of a guard, then as he is unaware of you, you can take a full round worth of attacks against him from the Ambush feat.
This was a good clarification of the eat from Hyboria's Fiercest, as the description in that book was vague.
An off topic question that relates to unaware combatants. If someone is engaged in combat and actively defending from another combatant, could he be considered flat-footed for someone firing from a hidden location, so the target is unaweare of him?
I'd say he would be flat-footed, because to dodge or parry a blow you have to see it comming.
Mark Dunder
Mongoose
With CCR, you can use Danger Sense Talent to help you out. If you don't have Danger Sense, you can just use your General Insight Talent. This gives all characters the chance to "sense" a surprise attack. If you also have the Talent Animal Senses, you get an extra +2 column shift on the Resolution Table.
I was revisiting this topic, and the -4 to initiative seems harsh since it will affect their initiative order troughout the following combat.
I was also considering the Striking Cobra feat. It seems precisely the kind of action that would shock unsuspecting characters, so I guess the -4 to initiative could apply to their initiatives if combat follows?
I was also considering the Striking Cobra feat. It seems precisely the kind of action that would shock unsuspecting characters, so I guess the -4 to initiative could apply to their initiatives if combat follows?
urdinaran said:
You may be suprised to learn that the rules actually have nothing to say on this topic. Not one mention of if the defender is penalized or the attacker gets a bonus or even to say that nothing at all happens. There just is not a rule for this.
I know! Its wierd isn't it? You wouldn't believe some of the arguments I've seen over this issue. :?
What do I do? I rule that if you are unaware of a hiding opponent then that opponnet is treated as Invisible with regards to you. Thus a thief in my game can sneak his way accross a battlefield and stab the sorcorer.
Please note that after your first attack while hidding the defender instantly is aware of you unless you succede on another hide check with a -20 penalty (its nearly impossible to hide while attacking).
Also note that being unaware of someone is not the same a being flat-footed. Flat-footed is a special condition that only occurs at the start of combat and which results in the character loosing their dodge/parry bonus to DV. This is significant in the event of some abilities that only trigger when someone is flat-footed (such as Uncanny Dodge).
Hope that helps.
argo said:
That's what I would think, so a kind of surprise attack could happen even after the target has already acted. The thing for sneak attackers is to be sudden or stealthy, or flank, which puts them in the way of harm. They strike like lightning or they wait until the right moment, at any point in combat, but just as you say, the rules don't cover it after combat is all out. You could very well sneak your way behind the sorecerer that's keeping everyone else at bay, and get him. That's what a sneaky type is supposed to do. Given the many skill point both get (scholar and thief), I'd say it gets balanced, becase as the thief could have a good many hide or move silently ranks, a scholar could have a good spot or listen modifer. You could also rule that for a scholar with divination spells, he could get a sinergy bonus to his checks. With other classes, it could be a little harsher, but again, the big skill points of a thief is one of his strenghts.
urdinaran said:
I think something to remember here is that in D20 characters don't have a "facing" (well they don't in Conan or Star Wars), they are considered to be alert of everything around them. We don't "backstab" we sneak attack or flank, we avoid questioning where the "back" is.
However if a character has so far been hidden in combat and then either attacks from hiding or sneaks out and attacks within their turn then I have allowed sneak attacks and/or the target being flat footed.
Just a matter of GM fiat and what felt right at the time and not something I want to implement rules about as it would just complicate things and take away the simplicity that not having a facing gives.
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