Ships cost an Insane Amount

[rinku]

Ships are expensive, but all except the military ones will be able to at least cover costs, with the merchant ones being WELL able to do so.

For groups who choose to get a less profitable ship (Yachts and Lab Ships - I'm looking at YOU!) or who really don't want to be cargo haulers, it's best to set up a patron who actually pays the mortgage in return for services. In the OP example, the executive might be getting the Yacht as part of his salary package as part of a tax deal; he can pay it off to own it outright, but otherwise the mortgage is paid off by the company and he's expected to use it as part of company business, or otherwise be expected to run missions for the company in return for otherwise free use of the ship.

Players can also be inventive, too: I've got a group that ended up with 42% of a Lab Ship, mostly owned by a highly skilled surgeon who has laid out a business plan to travel from planet to planet doing cybernetic enhancements to wealthy patients. He has the skills, he has the ship and I thoroughly approve.

One of the other players has a Scout ship, and I offered an alternate option to them to just adventure in the scout while the ship they had shares in was run by NPCs and provided them with possible out of play profit (or loss).

 

[alex_greene]

Players can also be inventive, too: I've got a group that ended up with 42% of a Lab Ship, mostly owned by a highly skilled surgeon who has laid out a business plan to travel from planet to planet doing cybernetic enhancements to wealthy patients. He has the skills, he has the ship and I thoroughly approve.

I had a similar arrangement in the Patron scenarios I wrote up for Signs & Portents, only it was a larger ship like a Type R Fat Trader, gussied up to resemble those flying Russian eye hospitals that were big in the Eighties and Nineties. Only, in one version of the mission, the Patron's "humanitarian mission" was actually a cover for a flying brothel.

Still, it was a profitable venture, in its own way.

 

[DFW]

I use a model where ship components get cheaper for every TL above their introduction. J1 Drive came in at TL 10. Buying a J1 drive at a TL shipyard is
at 50% of list. Electronics/computers drop @ 15%/TL including size.

 

[Ector]

GM/Referee can change the rules as he wants, but the ship should be expensive, and it generally should be hard to get for your players. If ship would be as affordable as modern cars, nobody would live on the planets
So if you change the rules you should think twice and thrice. Paying debts can be painful, but you can throw your players some adventures profitable enough to pay the mortgage. When you just give them a ship, don't expect they're going to value it much. And when they lose the ship, they will require another one for free.
After all, the ship is the most expensive and hard-to-get thing is this world; it replaces the artifact weapons & armor from fantasy settings. Giving them for free just devalvates them and makes your game poor.

I also cannot understand problems like "my players don't like math". The players don't do the math; you determine the payments size and tell them. Then they are free to raise the money with the math or without it

On the other hand, I don't like too much economy myself. The mentioned GURPS Traveller Far Trader is a brilliant book describing every aspect of making money by hauling goods and passengers, but I really hate to play with "cargo brokers", adding the unneeded details about the shipping terms or calculating the starport fees in details. Mongoose Traveller's core rulebook has decent rules about trade.

 

[DFW]

GM/Referee can change the rules as he wants, but the ship should be expensive, and it generally should be hard to get for your players. If ship would be as affordable as modern cars, nobody would live on the planets

I don't think I've read a post here that makes rules so that starships cost only thousands of credits... Many millions, yes.

 

[Ector]

I don't think I've read a post here that makes rules so that starships cost only thousands of credits... Many millions, yes.

But there is a post suggesting giving a starship for free, and there are several posts with 1 share => 5 shares suggestion.
As for the cars, please note that according to the Trade skill description in core rulebook, an average Imperium citizen earns just several hundred credits per month. With such salaries, even cars wouldn't be available for everybody!
I guess most of you guys live in countries where cars are common and affordable to everybody. But I live in Belarus, and our average citizen really earns $300-$400 per month. New cars are NOT available to everybody here, and our people usually buy used cars that your people sell The older the car, the cheaper it is. Some fans even repair the old cars themselves.
Why not follow the same way for starships? The adventurers shouldn't start the game rich, should they?

 

[rust]

The adventurers shouldn't start the game rich, should they?

In one of my settings the characters got a nice ship entirely for free, but
it was the only supply ship for a few distant frontier colonies - if the ship
did not arrive in time to deliver provisions, pharmaceuticals, vital life sup-
port system spare parts and thelike, many people would die.

The characters never had the feeling that they were particularly wealthy,
as they did just barely manage to keep the ship going, and the value of
the ship did not mean that they could afford any luxuries. In fact, they
usually had to forego all luxuries to remain able to finance the ship.

 

[DFW]

I don't think I've read a post here that makes rules so that starships cost only thousands of credits... Many millions, yes.

But there is a post suggesting giving a starship for free, and there are several posts with 1 share => 5 shares suggestion.
As for the cars, please note that according to the Trade skill description in core rulebook, an average Imperium citizen earns just several hundred credits per month. With such salaries, even cars wouldn't be available for everybody!
I guess most of you guys live in countries where cars are common and affordable to everybody. But I live in Belarus, and our average citizen really earns $300-$400 per months. Cars are NOT available to everybody here, and our people usually buy used cars that your people are selling Why not follow the same way for starships? The adventurers shouldn't start the game rich, should they?

Well, first off PCs aren't the general population so not relevant re ship shares and the like. For NPCs (the rest of the pop) starships cost millions.

2nd, the rule you are citing is for PCs to get part time temp work. NOT a rule on a full time job with a company.

3rd, most of the Imperium citizens don't live on worlds with an oppressive dictatorship that has total control of the economy and stifles enterprise. Most people in the 3I come from high tech worlds that are "Rich" by the definition of someone coming from a low tech dictatorship...

However, given all that, the prices for grav vehicles and the like on high tech worlds ARE wacky and don't represent ANY naturally evolving econ model.

 

[Chuckhazard]

2nd, the rule you are citing is for PCs to get part time temp work. NOT a rule on a full time job with a company.

The retirement pay for PCs might be relevant here - 10k/year for a 5 termer. I assume retirement pay is some fraction of work salary, but that comes to ~830cr/mo.

Nobody's buying a ship with their retirement pay...

I also thought it was a little odd that there isn't a scale for the retirement pay based on career. Dilettante retires on the same stipend as a marine or citizen? And rank doesn't even come into it, although bennie tables provide a considerable offset.

 

[DFW]

2nd, the rule you are citing is for PCs to get part time temp work. NOT a rule on a full time job with a company.

The retirement pay for PCs might be relevant here - 10k/year for a 5 termer. I assume retirement pay is some fraction of work salary, but that comes to ~830cr/mo.

Nobody's buying a ship with their retirement pay...

I also thought it was a little odd that there isn't a scale for the retirement pay based on career. Dilettante retires on the same stipend as a marine or citizen? And rank doesn't even come into it, although bennie tables provide a considerable offset.

Right. The US mil has a good retirement plan. However, under the Trav system, maybe 1/10 of 1% of people with normal jobs can afford an air raft, unless they plan on living in it. So, the econ "model" is VERY wacky.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The adventurers shouldn't start the game rich, should they?

Why not? I see it as being totally up to the players and GM. Unless the whole objective of the players is to become rich - then game over. For some people it's not about the money it's about the adventure.

In some situations there may be no need for a ship at all. Some people play out a campaign where the players never venture from the world they start on. Maybe they are a mercenary team and the patron arranges travel if needed.

In another situation the players may not own a ship. Maybe they are hired to operate one of the many ships owned by a merchant. Maybe they are scientist hired to work on a lab ship. Crew hired to operate a nobles new Yacht.

And sometimes the GM and players don't want the game to be about a struggling group of traders trying to make ends meet. Instead the players get a ship somehow and the adventures are about all the strange places the characters go, the people they meet, and crazy situations they get into.

So go ahead and let the merchant PC take over a relatives ship when they retire. Let the Noble character inherit a ship when a relative dies. Maybe a character gets marries to someone rich and the ship is a wedding present. Maybe the ship has AI and has chosen one of the players to be it's new 'owner' when the previous one dies.

But easy come, easy go. Maybe the ship is stolen, impounded, the AI takes over and flies away when everyone is in the star port, the ship explodes in some disaster, or it's a transformer and turns into a war machine that tries to kill all the people of the world you are on. Perhaps at the end of the adventure the character wakes up to realize they are just a 16 year old kid who fell asleep at their school desk.

It's a game and the only real limit is the imagination.

 

[DFW]

That heavily depends on the planned campaign/scenario. If they want to play "struggeling merchants"

Right you are. However, I'm talking about an internally consistent econ model.

 

[DFW]

That is actually quite easy if you read some stuff a bit different. Income as "disposabel income" for example. Suddenly everybody is a lot better of without much rules changing.

Right. But again, I'm talking about RAW.

 

[DFW]

That is actually quite easy if you read some stuff a bit different. Income as "disposabel income" for example. Suddenly everybody is a lot better of without much rules changing.

Right. But again, I'm talking about RAW.

RAW????

Rules As Written

Also, there are figures for disposable income. It is the salary for ship personnel. All other cost of living is covered (housing, food). So take your figures from that.

 

[DFW]

If you want to use the economic rules "by the book"

Naw, I don't need that much accuracy, just rules that aren't TOTALLY bonkers on the subject but, are internally consistent. Similar to tweaks I make with starship tech.

 

[kristof65]

Something to keep in mind - prices are pretty much relative to income, and that can vary widely. Real world inflation can best be used to illustrate that.

In 1968, the list price of a brand new base model Corvette was $4,600 or so. In 2010, it's over 10 times that, around $48,000. The guy making $20k a year in 1968 probably doesn't have nearly as much of a problem buying a new Corvette as the guy making $20k a year in 2010 does.

So the price of a Traveller ship is really dependant more on the amount of money the GM is going to let the players have - if a GM uses the RAW and doesn't throw in much in the way of lucrative side job/adventures, the PCs are going to struggle. OTOH, if the GM is trhowing lots of lucrative side jobs/adventures at the PCs, the ship might not wind up being "expensive" at all.

 

[Captain Jonah]

In answer to the first point raised. Yes ships are expensive if you look at them from a person in the street scale. From the point of view of Free Traders who deal in millions a year they are not so expensive.

Ship shares, a share in a ship. Most people switch these to a fixed value, I use Mcr1 myself. As a % of value they make no sense. 5 ship shares as 5% of a Free Trader is Cr1,783,350. The same shares in a Fat trader are Cr4,859,100. Settle on a fixed value. The origional poster said his group had an incredible 48 shares, well done them. Mcr48 buys the Mcr50 ship close enough for a ref to fudge the extra as a slight discount. Cash sir, sold.

For ships that cannot trade for income then alternative sources of income can be sorted. A monthly stipend from the nobles family perhaps.

With a fair stash of shipshares why not get two or three ships. Nothing in the rules against it. Grab a Fat Trader with a few shares and then the Yacht with the rest. Float a small haulage company, find a decent route and hire some crew. Between adventures some of the players can do the cargo runs, once some nice juicy adventure arrives you have some income from the frieght runs to offset the yachts lack of income.

Set up a subby run with the merchant, less outgoings, more net income and as you have the yacht to adventure with no worries about the subby being tied to a fixed route.

I like doing the math, math is fun, math is good, math is your friend. Complex finances take a bit of work but when done properly (and presuming we don't have a new ref who seems to think we should be begging somewhere) give groups the independance to go adventure. All these adventures that fudge events to force you to take an adventure, you are stranded, you are broke, trade has been bad etc. Offer adventures that draw people in, getting draged into an adventure against your will is fine from time to time but is no fun if every adventure starts that way. Usualy thats time to dump the ref, though that mostly means me reffing again. Sigh. :roll:

The Rules As Writen are a framework, it is the Ref who fills that framework and makes the game enjoyable for players. If you as a ref want your players to have a ship, make it possible.

Traveller was, is, and hopefully always will be about Travellers travelling and finding adventure. A ship is an extra member of the party. If you want to play sci fi without ships go play another game.

Oh and before someone says why would you adventure if you have a small fleet of ships making money hauling cargo. Well because: Its reliable reports of an ancient base, a friend/ally is in trouble, the pirate scum threaten my company, the guy who saved my life 20 years ago called in the favour etc etc. Being rich means not worrying about a mortgage payment, I am still a Traveller.

HAVE STARSHIP. WILL TRAVELLER.

 

[rust]

If you want to play sci fi without ships go play another game.

Ah ... I originally intended to stay with Traveller for a few more days ...

The setting I am currently working on has only starships owned and ope-
rated by non-player characters, the player characters are planet bound
and can only book a passage or perhaps charter a ship now and then -
more likely "then", because they could hardly afford it at the beginning
of the campaign.

Traveller does this kind of campaign just as well as "starhopping", and an
unexplored planet is big enough to provide challenges even for a long cam-
paign.

 

[Chuckhazard]

Traveller does this kind of campaign just as well as "starhopping", and an
unexplored planet is big enough to provide challenges even for a long cam-
paign.

My players caught me by surprise on this one. I had a similar plan, wasn't even going to touch starships for a few months, do a bunch of planetside development.

Character creation, they took focused on ship shares. First session they were going over starship combat rules. Didn't even have a ship yet (while they do "have" a ship, its impounded! They're going to do at least some of my planetside adventure, dammit! )

 

[kristof65]

Oh and before someone says why would you adventure if you have a small fleet of ships making money hauling cargo.

Based on my experience, that should be the more likely of the true adventurers. I'm self employed as a sub-contractor, I work my butt off just to make ends meet - I don't have time to "adventure". But the millionaire owners I've worked for throughout the years always seem to be off on some new trip or adventure.