Ship's Brain Interface sizing and use

[Vormaerin]

But none of that is how Traveller is written.

Yes, Leadership is useful for more than just combat, but it is distributed in Chargen mostly in careers focused on combat. And all of its examples in game are about combat. So expecting characters who don't have a combat career background to have it is impractical.

Also, yes, you could rewrite the game to make Profession (Spacer) and various other Profession skills a thing that actually features in a prominent way. But that's not how it happens in the rules as written. Merchants, Scouts, and Navy don't get Profession.

Yes, IRL, all those Logistics fields are distinct training. But then so is Paramedic, Nurse, Gynecologist, and Neurosurgeon. But not in Traveller, where that is all Steward or Medic, respectively.

Persuade and Diplomat can be used to calm people down, as written. But so can Steward. It's one of the three explicit uses of the skill in the rules:
Calming Down an Angry Duke who has Just Been Told he Will not be Jumping to his Destination on Time:
Difficult (10+) Steward check (1D minutes, SOC).

Skills should not be completely amorphous and mean whatever the player wants. But reading them narrowly when they are not designed narrowly and saying they don't overlap when many of them (especially the social skills) explicitly overlap, is not a good idea, IMHO.

 

[swordtart]

But none of that is how Traveller is written.

Yes, Leadership is useful for more than just combat, but it is distributed in Chargen mostly in careers focused on combat. And all of its examples in game are about combat. So expecting characters who don't have a combat career background to have it is impractical.

It is used in non combat contexts in scenarios (e.g. Great Rift Adventures 1-5 p203 "Average (8+) Leadership check (SOC) to rally the
Shunned around the Travellers." so the combat context is simply the most obvious use (some fo the skill use examples are a bit obvious and lazy). You don't have to expect characters to have it a skill to be able to need a skill check. Sometimes Travellers fail because they don't have (or think to use) the right skill.

Also, yes, you could rewrite the game to make Profession (Spacer) and various other Profession skills a thing that actually features in a prominent way. But that's not how it happens in the rules as written. Merchants, Scouts, and Navy don't get Profession.

Companion expands on those skills. Profession-0 is a background skill. It is just being employable for fetching and carrying. Profession(Spacer) is just a context. Deckhands don't get deckhand as a skill because the ability to do as you are told isn't a skill, it is a mindset.

Yes, IRL, all those Logistics fields are distinct training. But then so is Paramedic, Nurse, Gynecologist, and Neurosurgeon. But not in Traveller, where that is all Steward or Medic, respectively.

I see nowhere in the skill description of Steward anything about logistics. I see knowing your place, cooking, tailoring and basic management. I believe we are disagreeing with the conflation of the role and the skills that role has. I believe that the ships Steward role encompasses many skills of which Steward is one.

Persuade and Diplomat can be used to calm people down, as written. But so can Steward. It's one of the three explicit uses of the skill in the rules:
Calming Down an Angry Duke who has Just Been Told he Will not be Jumping to his Destination on Time:
Difficult (10+) Steward check (1D minutes, SOC).

You will have missed perhaps that I refer to this exact use in my post. This case of persuasion is directly related to the passenger function on the ship. It presumably refer to the basic management element of the role (and knowing your place). This is the last resort of customer service so it is fair use. Steward skill would not be any use in Calming down an angry Duke who has just been told that you broke windows whilst playing football at his palace.

Skills should not be completely amorphous and mean whatever the player wants. But reading them narrowly when they are not designed narrowly and saying they don't overlap when many of them (especially the social skills) explicitly overlap, is not a good idea, IMHO.

I am not sure that multiple ways to achieve the similar outcome is equivalent to overlapping. To get to a city I can Fly an Air Raft, Drive an ATV or catch a train. The outcome is the same, but the skills used are very different and not at all interchangeable.

Carousing with someone to get them on side versus Persuasion or Diplomacy will have a very different specific end results and will depend very much on the existing relationship between the two parties. Even Persuasion is subdivided into wheedling, bluffing and intimidating and others which might have an equivalent effect when persuading someone not to shoot you, but there will be different long term repercussions.

 

[Vormaerin]

It's your table. If you want some skills to be interpreted very narrowly and other skills interpreted broadly, that's fine.

My point about logistics is that no skill in Traveller covers that, but that the real world shipping and navy has all the things Steward covers be in the same cluster has other supplies and logistics management. The officer who controls the cooks, the tailors, the barbers, and the other "hospitality" crew also handles the supply and cargo workers. You could, of course, just say it is part of Admin. Or that it just magically happens. After all, there is no job on a merchant ship that actually deals with this stuff, so maybe in the future it is automatic.

I find the idea that someone would have the skill to calm down an angry person only if that person is angry about a customer service issue, but not if they are angry about something else to be ludicrous. But you are obviously not required to agree.

Anyway, to bring this back on topic for this thread:

There is nothing wrong with Virtual Crew, Robotic Crew, or whatever other automation you want to include. I, personally, think that if you don't have a player who wants to be the person interacting with passengers, you probably shouldn't feature passengers in your campaign. If I was going to automate any role on a ship, it would be the Astrogator (which is how it was in CT). But, amusingly, that's the one role that is not allowed to be automated.

 

[Terry Mixon]

It's your table. If you want some skills to be interpreted very narrowly and other skills interpreted broadly, that's fine.

My point about logistics is that no skill in Traveller covers that, but that the real world shipping and navy has all the things Steward covers be in the same cluster has other supplies and logistics management. The officer who controls the cooks, the tailors, the barbers, and the other "hospitality" crew also handles the supply and cargo workers. You could, of course, just say it is part of Admin. Or that it just magically happens. After all, there is no job on a merchant ship that actually deals with this stuff, so maybe in the future it is automatic.

I find the idea that someone would have the skill to calm down an angry person only if that person is angry about a customer service issue, but not if they are angry about something else to be ludicrous. But you are obviously not required to agree.

Anyway, to bring this back on topic for this thread:

There is nothing wrong with Virtual Crew, Robotic Crew, or whatever other automation you want to include. I, personally, think that if you don't have a player who wants to be the person interacting with passengers, you probably shouldn't feature passengers in your campaign. If I was going to automate any role on a ship, it would be the Astrogator (which is how it was in CT). But, amusingly, that's the one role that is not allowed to be automated.

You can always Rule 0 it and let ship’s computers and robots astrogate. I personally think the whole idea they can’t is ridiculous.

 

[Vormaerin]

You can always Rule 0 it and let ship’s computers and robots astrogate. I personally think the whole idea they can’t is ridiculous.

You can reasonably assume that I am not actually following the rules as written in my campaign when they don't work for me. I prefer to discuss topics on the forum within the context of the written rules, however, as they provide a common basis for discussion.

The actual rule against virtual astrogation is unique to Mongoose. I started a conversation about the origin of this concept a year or two ago and the upshot was one of the freelancers slipped it into a sourcebook and Geir, being pretty diligent, spotted it and included it in the Robot Handbook.

 

[Terry Mixon]

You can reasonably assume that I am not actually following the rules as written in my campaign when they don't work for me. I prefer to discuss topics on the forum within the context of the written rules, however, as they provide a common basis for discussion.

The actual rule against virtual astrogation is unique to Mongoose. I started a conversation about the origin of this concept a year or two ago and the upshot was one of the freelancers slipped it into a sourcebook and Geir, being pretty diligent, spotted it and included it in the Robot Handbook.

Maybe @MongooseMatt, @MongooseChris, and @Geir will slip it back out. It’s jarring, overly woo-woo, and nonsensical. Just like the ship have negatives to jump when there is no sentient aboard. Both of those need to go.

 

[Condottiere]

Administration could have specializations.

One of which could be logistics.

Getting people to do things, could be any combination of intimidation, bribery, cajoling, authority, and/or persuasion.

 

[Vormaerin]

We don't need more specializations. Traveller is stingy with skills as it is. If anything, we need some existing specializations (looking at you, Engineering and Athletics) condensed into just the base skill again.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I consider CT skill list to be too bloated. Reducing weapon skills to handgun, rifle helps a bit, but do we really need a separate vehicle ship's boat pilot skill?
And yes, Engineering should go back to being one skill.

 

[Limpin Legin]

I consider CT skill list to be too bloated.

Traveller is stingy with skills as it is.

The Universe is vast. There is bound to be a number of skills required to make sense of it and accomplish challenges within it. 1) Traveller is specifically a skills and lifepath game - if it didn't offer a wide variety of options then it would lack character where it matters most. 2) It is almost impossible for any one Traveller to have all the 'right' skills - players need to know that they would struggle crossing the Universe unless they team up with other Travellers with complementary skillsets.

And yes, Engineering should go back to being one skill.

Considering that Engineering in it's variety is the bed-rock of much Sci-Fi I would disagree up to a point. I think Engineering has too many specialities but I also think it needs to have different specialities to give that aspect of sci-fi some character.
I had in mind of changing Engineering to Engineering(Fuel Transfer) and Engineering(Energy Recycling) to keep things brief and to the point while offering some useful discrimination.

Having more Admin specialities would be fabulous in a game where societies and governments have evolved into a variety of different ventures that span the stars. I mean Admin also needs to have more character where the game relies upon being Administered by different government types.
Admin(Logistics) would be a good option. So would Admin(Informatics) and Admin(Computer), as has been discussed before on this Forum.

 

[Anstett]

2) It is almost impossible for any one Traveller to have all the 'right' skills - players need to know that they would struggle crossing the Universe unless they team up with other Travellers with complementary skillsets.

THIS is one of the core Traveller concepts in my opinion.

The group is the important thing. No one can make it in the universe on their own. Civilization is built on groups of people working together.

 

[jaysm]

Maybe @MongooseMatt, @MongooseChris, and @Geir will slip it back out. It’s jarring, overly woo-woo, and nonsensical. Just like the ship have negatives to jump when there is no sentient aboard. Both of those need to go.

That was what my Ship's Cat suggestion was about, they are conscious and sentient after all, RAW. Added to my ship now, just in case something happens to the crew. The cat always survives, I saw it in a documentary called Alien. What I am deciding is if 1Cr a day is a fair salary.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Vormaerin]

The Universe is vast. There is bound to be a number of skills required to make sense of it and accomplish challenges within it. 1) Traveller is specifically a skills and lifepath game - if it didn't offer a wide variety of options then it would lack character where it matters most. 2) It is almost impossible for any one Traveller to have all the 'right' skills - players need to know that they would struggle crossing the Universe unless they team up with other Travellers with complementary skillsets.


Considering that Engineering in it's variety is the bed-rock of much Sci-Fi I would disagree up to a point. I think Engineering has too many specialities but I also think it needs to have different specialities to give that aspect of sci-fi some character.
I had in mind of changing Engineering to Engineering(Fuel Transfer) and Engineering(Energy Recycling) to keep things brief and to the point while offering some useful discrimination.

Having more Admin specialities would be fabulous in a game where societies and governments have evolved into a variety of different ventures that span the stars. I mean Admin also needs to have more character where the game relies upon being Administered by different government types.
Admin(Logistics) would be a good option. So would Admin(Informatics) and Admin(Computer), as has been discussed before on this Forum.

Characters are only going to have like 12 skill levels or so on average. 1.5 x Terms + maybe 4 from connections/skill package. No one is in any danger of knowing it all. Yeah, some will end up with like 20 ranks, but that's skill not that many skills compared to the list.

Pretty much every Traveller skill is extremely broad in a RL sense. What's the game play benefit of making your party's Engineer halve their core skill by giving it specializations? They already need Engineer & Mechanics to play the fantasy of being Scotty or Naomi Nagata. Are you expecting to have multiple Engineers in your party that you need to differentiate?

Having a swathe of Social skills (Diplomat, Persuasion, Streetwise, Carouse, Admin, etc) is useful because it gives multiple characters a chance to have a distinct role in dealing with NPCs, a core function you want everyone involved in.

Electronics is the only skill on the list that screams "too much" to me and needing to be two different skills, not just one cascade. Admin does kind of push close to that, but it's in the "social skills" category so helps keep it in line.

And, yes, I agree with Sigtrygg that Pilot's specializations are pretty pointless, too.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Say you need to calm a passenger down after an argument with another passenger. That is in my opinion a pretty clear Persuade (SOC) skill check (as it has nothing to do with any service the ship is contracted to provide passengers - unlike the Sector Duke example in the CRB). I would however let you skill chain Steward to enhance the attempt by offering some extra services, offering a special meal, or by mediating the disagreement etc. Even if you had no Persuade skill the -3 for unskilled could be entirely offset by a competent Steward check without having to subsume Persuade in any way into the Steward skill.

If you have two characters, one with Persuade and the other with Steward it enables them to work together and both get to shine rather than one usurping the other.

Another option. Each skill can have a Jack of all Trades effect on other related skills being used with it.

Your steward above needs persuade to calm down the argument since it is in a steward associated situation his (for example) Steward 2 gets applied to his unskilled Persuade check reducing it from -3 to -1 and at best to a Persuade 0 if he had Steward 3 or higher.

Profession could be used similarly in related fields. You have Profession (Belter) 1 and are operating the mining laser unskilled as Gunner -2 instead of Gunner -3. In this case you might even apply the Profession (Belter) as a modifier to the Gunner skill for mining purposes if the Gunner skill is possessed. The Gunner 1 + Belter 1 = Gunner 2.

This would work to effectively broaden skills giving more ability to function without the (whole) -3 of non skilled. Lost your Astrogator? Your Pilot 2 can get you home functioning as a Astrogator -1.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[jaysm]

View attachment 7615

That takes me waaaay back. It worked well, each dot you pass through is basically a -DM from the trained skill. Some of the build/repairs felt like they needed more dots, like that vehicle skills had, but it did the job effectively.

 

[Condottiere]

I always thought that was the solution, instead of Jack of all Trades.

Considering artificially limiting the number of skills, the alternative being to find substitutes for the effect you wanted to create.

 

[Quint]

The actual rule against virtual astrogation is unique to Mongoose. I started a conversation about the origin of this concept a year or two ago and the upshot was one of the freelancers slipped it into a sourcebook and Geir, being pretty diligent, spotted it and included it in the Robot Handbook.

Is it? I was pretty sure this was a MWMism along with no jump vessels under 100dton that came out of the same decision that jump torps were not a thing.

D.

 

[Vormaerin]

Well, no one in this thread (including the Robots author) could find such a rule anywhere outside of Mongoose products. https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/origin-of-sentience-for-jump-space.124411/

You might have better luck.

It definitely wasn't in CT, because even in the 1981 edition, the Generate program still existed. And there were references in other books to being able to send ships completely without crew.

Anyway, don't want to restart all that but if you can find a stated rule in some other edition, I'm sure folks would be interested.