Ship Values
- Thread starter scorpioni
- Start date
When the Juyaka appear I made some calculation to count if this ship is as weak as I think and come to the conclusion that I was wrong, it is a solid war ship, but as ever with the Abbaï it's lack of range call for a swarm to be able to direct the battle.
Most of this calculation may be useless with the 2°ed but the method may still be useful.
I must notice that I over simplified the result. But it's not avoidable when you try to give a 2 digit long single number to a multidimensional value. ( AF is useless against ship, interceptor against beam ... )
Another limits is that I use E ( whats may be its name in English ? E may be simplified as the average of results : E = Σ ( V(i)*P(i) ) . ) for comparison when other statistical value may be useful.
I give for a ship a damage value equal to the sum of the AD he can throw at this range multiplied by the factor of their special trait :
Double Damage : 1.8 ( 2 minus a little to take account of the lack of special effect in crit )
TD : 2.7 ( see above )
Boresight : 0.8 ( tactical estimation )
B(A) : 0.3 ( tactical estimation )
Precise : 1.5 ( pure damage value are 1.4 but added a little for the special effect of crit )
Slow loading : 0.55 ( added a little for the concentration of fire effect )
Energy mine : 0.8 ( 0.7 because of damage and no special effect * 1.25 because of tactical estimation )
Mass Driver : 0.1 ( tactical estimation )
Anti fighter : 1.1 ( tactical estimation )
mini beam : 1.2 ( tactical estimation )
Beam : 1.1 plus beam dam value ( tactical estimation )
damage value ( tactical estimation of an average hull of 5.5 ):
Normal/weak : 0.165
N/Normal : 0.25
N/AP : 0.42
N/SAP: 0.58
Twin linked/W : 0.31
Twl/N : 0.44
Twl/AP : 0.66
Twl/SAP:0.82
Beam/W : 0.23
B/N : 0.32
B/AP :0.55
B/SAP:0.88
B twin linked /W : 0.39 ( Actually made for an estimation of the reroll effect )
B Twl /N : 0.54
BTwl /AP : 0.87
B twl /SAP : 1.27
( note this is with 1°ed beam, with 2°beam damage factor of B : 1, B twl : 1.5, mini beam 0.5, mini beam Twl : 0.75 )
With this it come :
Juyaka :
Forward 15:3.3, 12:11.88, Total 12:15.18
Side 15:2.46, 12:11.88, Total 12:14.36
Aft 12:7.13
Bin'Tak
Forward 30:5.24, 25:7.91, 20:4.91, 8:6.96 , Total 8:25.02
Side 8:3.98
Aft 25:1.9, 8:2.24, Total 8:4.14
Command omega
Forward 30:10.14, 12:6.16 Total 12:16.3
Side 12:4.4, 5:1.65, Total 5:6.05
Aft 30:2.85, 12:3.52, Total 12:3.52
finally :
J : 12: 15/14/7
B'T : 8: 25/4/4
C Ω: 12: 16/6/3.5
I came lazy before working out defense I just made the interceptor.
Int reduce the number of hit by 0.16 when depleted. Also non used int
block on the 6 fist attack an average of ( int value / hit blocked ) ( note for depleted ones it may be seen as 0/1 )
1/2.31, 2/2.89, 3/3.20, 4/3.4, 5/3.55; 6/3.67, 7/3.76, 8/3.84, 9/3.91, 10/3.96, 11/4.02, 12/4.06, 2500/6
Most of this calculation may be useless with the 2°ed but the method may still be useful.
I must notice that I over simplified the result. But it's not avoidable when you try to give a 2 digit long single number to a multidimensional value. ( AF is useless against ship, interceptor against beam ... )
Another limits is that I use E ( whats may be its name in English ? E may be simplified as the average of results : E = Σ ( V(i)*P(i) ) . ) for comparison when other statistical value may be useful.
I give for a ship a damage value equal to the sum of the AD he can throw at this range multiplied by the factor of their special trait :
Double Damage : 1.8 ( 2 minus a little to take account of the lack of special effect in crit )
TD : 2.7 ( see above )
Boresight : 0.8 ( tactical estimation )
B(A) : 0.3 ( tactical estimation )
Precise : 1.5 ( pure damage value are 1.4 but added a little for the special effect of crit )
Slow loading : 0.55 ( added a little for the concentration of fire effect )
Energy mine : 0.8 ( 0.7 because of damage and no special effect * 1.25 because of tactical estimation )
Mass Driver : 0.1 ( tactical estimation )
Anti fighter : 1.1 ( tactical estimation )
mini beam : 1.2 ( tactical estimation )
Beam : 1.1 plus beam dam value ( tactical estimation )
damage value ( tactical estimation of an average hull of 5.5 ):
Normal/weak : 0.165
N/Normal : 0.25
N/AP : 0.42
N/SAP: 0.58
Twin linked/W : 0.31
Twl/N : 0.44
Twl/AP : 0.66
Twl/SAP:0.82
Beam/W : 0.23
B/N : 0.32
B/AP :0.55
B/SAP:0.88
B twin linked /W : 0.39 ( Actually made for an estimation of the reroll effect )
B Twl /N : 0.54
BTwl /AP : 0.87
B twl /SAP : 1.27
( note this is with 1°ed beam, with 2°beam damage factor of B : 1, B twl : 1.5, mini beam 0.5, mini beam Twl : 0.75 )
With this it come :
Juyaka :
Forward 15:3.3, 12:11.88, Total 12:15.18
Side 15:2.46, 12:11.88, Total 12:14.36
Aft 12:7.13
Bin'Tak
Forward 30:5.24, 25:7.91, 20:4.91, 8:6.96 , Total 8:25.02
Side 8:3.98
Aft 25:1.9, 8:2.24, Total 8:4.14
Command omega
Forward 30:10.14, 12:6.16 Total 12:16.3
Side 12:4.4, 5:1.65, Total 5:6.05
Aft 30:2.85, 12:3.52, Total 12:3.52
finally :
J : 12: 15/14/7
B'T : 8: 25/4/4
C Ω: 12: 16/6/3.5
I came lazy before working out defense I just made the interceptor.
Int reduce the number of hit by 0.16 when depleted. Also non used int
block on the 6 fist attack an average of ( int value / hit blocked ) ( note for depleted ones it may be seen as 0/1 )
1/2.31, 2/2.89, 3/3.20, 4/3.4, 5/3.55; 6/3.67, 7/3.76, 8/3.84, 9/3.91, 10/3.96, 11/4.02, 12/4.06, 2500/6
The method (and values) are very, very close to mine although stop short of incoroporating range, interceptability, turns on the ship, speed of the ship and concentration of weapons in particular arcs. Just for comparison some of the values I've used (although am reviewing):
Weak: 1/5
Normal: 1/3
AP: 1/2
SAP: 2/3
Weak Twin-Linked: 1/3
Twin-Linked: 1/2
AP Twin-Linked: 7/10
SAP Twin-Linked: 6/7
Precise: 11/7
Double Damage: 13/7
Double Damage, Precise: 20/7
Triple Damage: 19/7
Triple Damage, Precise: 29/7
Quad Damage: 25/7
Quad Damage, Precise: 38/7
Beam: 7/6
Mini-beam: 7/12
E-mine: 2
Accurate: 7/6
Masters of Destruction: 5/4
Boresight: 4/5
Fore: 1
Port/Starboard: 5/9
Aft: 1/9
Boresight (Aft): 4/45
Turret: 5/4
(all affected by turns and distribution of arcs)
Range: (add the weapon's range and a factor for speed)/(range+speed factor+8)
Weak: 1/5
Normal: 1/3
AP: 1/2
SAP: 2/3
Weak Twin-Linked: 1/3
Twin-Linked: 1/2
AP Twin-Linked: 7/10
SAP Twin-Linked: 6/7
Precise: 11/7
Double Damage: 13/7
Double Damage, Precise: 20/7
Triple Damage: 19/7
Triple Damage, Precise: 29/7
Quad Damage: 25/7
Quad Damage, Precise: 38/7
Beam: 7/6
Mini-beam: 7/12
E-mine: 2
Accurate: 7/6
Masters of Destruction: 5/4
Boresight: 4/5
Fore: 1
Port/Starboard: 5/9
Aft: 1/9
Boresight (Aft): 4/45
Turret: 5/4
(all affected by turns and distribution of arcs)
Range: (add the weapon's range and a factor for speed)/(range+speed factor+8)
Yeah, that's the trickscorpioni said:Just so you know... you are AWESOME
can't wait for the rest
Now I can start calculating firepower values
you take the number of AD times any modifiers I presume? what's that speed factor you're talking about?
The speed factor basically means faster ships have an addition to their range (as their effective range is increased) and slower ships vice versa. During 1st ed. I had it add/subtract any difference compared to a speed of 8" to a weapon's range but I'm trying to enhance this.
Oh yeah,
One Shot: 1/2
Slow Loading: 2/3
Sounds about rightscorpioni said:Just to make sure I'm doing it right..
I have 51,1111 for a 2E Mankhat (I calculated with 14/12/12/10 Bolter AD cause I can't remember the exact numbers and am AFB).
Also, how do you value the Massdriver Trait?
As for Mass Drivers and Orbital Bombs - I've effectively been ignoring these so far. Even 1/20 may be generous!
Okay checked with my books and the values are correct. Also I forgot to mention I didn't include a range modifier for the various weapons cause that's still cloudy...
Just a small firepower comparison:
2E Mankhat: 51,1111
Armageddon Mankhat: 36,3016
Now THAT's an improvement, no? :shock: :lol:
edit: another one:
2E Mishakur: 44,9841
Armageddon Mishakur: 28,9722
nice
Just a small firepower comparison:
2E Mankhat: 51,1111
Armageddon Mankhat: 36,3016
Now THAT's an improvement, no? :shock: :lol:
edit: another one:
2E Mishakur: 44,9841
Armageddon Mishakur: 28,9722
nice
Just one comment on your speed assumptions...
High speed adds to initial range but becomes a penalty after the first shot as it becomes harder to keep a particular target ship in your forward arc.
and one for ranges...
Shorter ranges create small threat spheres that can be completely jumped by even moderately fast ships. ie if I'm a speed eight ship I can almost by definition completely jump out of range of an abbai ship after it shoots me once.
Not sure how you would incorporate those, but just saying that they aren't linear stats, range short has a double penalty (getting in range and staying there) and speed is a bonus that becomes a penalty (more so for bore sighted ships which must move each turn).
Ripple
High speed adds to initial range but becomes a penalty after the first shot as it becomes harder to keep a particular target ship in your forward arc.
and one for ranges...
Shorter ranges create small threat spheres that can be completely jumped by even moderately fast ships. ie if I'm a speed eight ship I can almost by definition completely jump out of range of an abbai ship after it shoots me once.
Not sure how you would incorporate those, but just saying that they aren't linear stats, range short has a double penalty (getting in range and staying there) and speed is a bonus that becomes a penalty (more so for bore sighted ships which must move each turn).
Ripple
Thankfully the speed penalty at long range is minimal but it's one I am considering at the moment.Ripple said:
The second case you mention is more complicated than that. If the short-ranged ship has a couple of turns/guns all-round then the penalties are lessened. Either way, as range gets below 10", the penalties using even this system are pretty harsh.
It's fun trying to look at things in this way though as it forces you to think what is valuable and why.
The effect of speed is affected also by the turning ability.
This is why I didn't even try to give it a value.
But I wonder how you come to precise value of 4/5 for boresight power or 7/12 for mini-beam.
An over thing that puzzle me is how to give number to thing such as an undefended arc that allow an agile opponent to harass the ship or the effect of the ability for a weapon to instant kill a kind of opponent a few but present time ( for example with the Withestar beam that can made huge damage on a critical )
This is why I didn't even try to give it a value.
But I wonder how you come to precise value of 4/5 for boresight power or 7/12 for mini-beam.
An over thing that puzzle me is how to give number to thing such as an undefended arc that allow an agile opponent to harass the ship or the effect of the ability for a weapon to instant kill a kind of opponent a few but present time ( for example with the Withestar beam that can made huge damage on a critical )
Yeah, the high speed ship with who's minimum speed is a small fraction of its range (or one that can move oblique to the target) is not big deal. The issue becomes more apparent in ships with a minimum move that is a large percentage of their weapons range and/or are restricted in maneuver. Mainly bore sighted ships in that catagory, but the Katoc can run into some issues here as well as the Thentus.
The main sufferers have been the Drazi skirmish hulls and Hyperion that tries to get its secondaries into the act.
Ripple
The main sufferers have been the Drazi skirmish hulls and Hyperion that tries to get its secondaries into the act.
Ripple
