Ship to shore action(s)

[BuShips]

I believe the largest Kamikaze in the world was a typhoon that destroyed a Mongel fleet in 1821, including the most technologically advanced warship of the time. :wink:

I think you meant "1281" instead of "1821", right? Well you speak of course of a "divine wind" that saved Japan from invasion, but not as to the modern meaning of a sacrifice of one's life for one's Emperor and country. If my guess was correct, you (like it is with me many times) were stating your comments with a wry additive style (just a guess, though) :wink: . I'd still hold the Yamato's effort as supreme over a non-corporeal typhoon :wink:, but that doesn't take away from the truth of your information either . BTW, I've recently read that the word "kamikaze" has a much more interesting history that I believed it did. Many words in Japanese are derived from Chinese actually, and thus a kanji character can be pronounced with a Japanese or Chinese variance. Even though the person saying it might be Japanese, they might use the Chinese pronunciation in common use, if I understand what I've read recently as correct. According to Wikipedia,
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"In the Japanese language, kamikaze (IPA: [kamikaze]) (Japanese:神風), usually translated as "divine wind" (kami is the word for "god", "spirit", or "divinity"; and kaze for "wind"), came into being as the name of legendary typhoons said to have saved Japan from a Mongol invasion fleet in 1274 and 1281.

In Japanese, the formal term used for units carrying out these suicide attacks during World War II is tokubetsu kōgeki tai (特別攻撃隊), which literally means "special attack unit." This is usually abbreviated to tokkōtai (特攻隊). More specifically, air suicide attack units from the Imperial Japanese Navy were officially called shinpū tokubetsu kōgeki tai (神風特別攻撃隊, "divine wind special attack units". Shinpū is the on-reading (on'yomi or Chinese-derived pronunciation) of the same characters that form the word Kamikaze in Japanese. However, during World War II, the actual word Kamikaze was never, or rarely, used in Japan in relation to suicide attacks. U.S. translators during the war erroneously used the kun'yomi (indigenous Japanese pronunciation) for Shinpū, giving the English language the word kamikaze, for Japanese suicide units in general. This usage gained acceptance worldwide.

After the war, Japanese speakers re-imported the word and the English language pronunciation, under the influence of U.S. media sources. As a result, the special attack units are sometimes known in Japan as kamikaze tokubetsu kōgeki tai."
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I found this very interesting, as a piece of history. So Shinpū was the more common pronunciation if I understand this correctly. If western translators had got it correctly as it was being used in Japan, then Kamikaze would not have been the spelling used by the western world. That does not make Kamikaze wrong either, as it was the Japanese derivation of Shinpū, and those in Japan were Japanese, get it? :wink: It's just that the kanji for it was really the Chinese sourced meaning, being used by the Japanese. This is sounding a lot like the old "Who's on first" baseball comedy act by Abbott and Costello :lol: .

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml

So Shinpū is the English word that more accurately describes what the special attack units were called, but if you really want to get confused, you can visit this website translated into English and it's written by a resident of Tokyo:

http://www.geocities.jp/kamikazes_site_e/kamikazenamae.html

Are you still with me, or did that get you more confused? So it seems that Kamikaze is the word that stuck, and is the word that is in worldwide use today. But at least this trivia should make for interesting casual talk with your friends, right? At least until they begin throwing things at you... :lol:

And you thought reading Internet forums wasn't a good use of your time, eh?

 

[oggie x]

I read that one of those practice shells actually ricocheted off the water and struck the Gneisneu putting a hole in her stack. Von Spee realised that he was going to be fighting ships with better guns than his own and made a run for it. Unfortunatly Strudee had 2 Invincible class battlecruisers at his disposal which whilst vastly outgunning Von Spee's ships also were faster. So Von Spee was screwed the moment he fled, had he attacked whilst the Brits were still coaling he may have had a chance, but no and he was massacred. I think the battle of the Falkland Islands was the only occasion where British Battlecruisers got to do what they were designed to do.

oggie

 

[Quel]

I think you meant "1281" instead of "1821", right? Well you speak of course of a "divine wind" that saved Japan from invasion, but not as to the modern meaning of a sacrifice of one's life for one's Emperor and country. If my guess was correct, you (like it is with me many times) were stating your comments with a wry additive style (just a guess, though) :wink: . I'd still hold the Yamato's effort as supreme over a non-corporeal typhoon :wink:, but that doesn't take away from the truth of your information either . BTW, I've recently read that the word "kamikaze" has a much more interesting history that I believed it did. Many words in Japanese are derived from Chinese actually, and thus a kanji character can be pronounced with a Japanese or Chinese variance. Even though the person saying it might be Japanese, they might use the Chinese pronunciation in common use, if I understand what I've read recently as correct. According to Wikipedia,
---
"In the Japanese language, kamikaze (IPA: [kamikaze]) (Japanese:神風), usually translated as "divine wind" (kami is the word for "god", "spirit", or "divinity"; and kaze for "wind"), came into being as the name of legendary typhoons said to have saved Japan from a Mongol invasion fleet in 1274 and 1281.

In Japanese, the formal term used for units carrying out these suicide attacks during World War II is tokubetsu kōgeki tai (特別攻撃隊), which literally means "special attack unit." This is usually abbreviated to tokkōtai (特攻隊). More specifically, air suicide attack units from the Imperial Japanese Navy were officially called shinpū tokubetsu kōgeki tai (神風特別攻撃隊, "divine wind special attack units". Shinpū is the on-reading (on'yomi or Chinese-derived pronunciation) of the same characters that form the word Kamikaze in Japanese. However, during World War II, the actual word Kamikaze was never, or rarely, used in Japan in relation to suicide attacks. U.S. translators during the war erroneously used the kun'yomi (indigenous Japanese pronunciation) for Shinpū, giving the English language the word kamikaze, for Japanese suicide units in general. This usage gained acceptance worldwide.

After the war, Japanese speakers re-imported the word and the English language pronunciation, under the influence of U.S. media sources. As a result, the special attack units are sometimes known in Japan as kamikaze tokubetsu kōgeki tai."
---

I found this very interesting, as a piece of history. So Shinpū was the more common pronunciation if I understand this correctly. If western translators had got it correctly as it was being used in Japan, then Kamikaze would not have been the spelling used by the western world. That does not make Kamikaze wrong either, as it was the Japanese derivation of Shinpū, and those in Japan were Japanese, get it? :wink: It's just that the kanji for it was really the Chinese sourced meaning, being used by the Japanese. This is sounding a lot like the old "Who's on first" baseball comedy act by Abbott and Costello :lol: .

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml

So Shinpū is the English word that more accurately describes what the special attack units were called, but if you really want to get confused, you can visit this website translated into English and it's written by a resident of Tokyo:

http://www.geocities.jp/kamikazes_site_e/kamikazenamae.html

Are you still with me, or did that get you more confused? So it seems that Kamikaze is the word that stuck, and is the word that is in worldwide use today. But at least this trivia should make for interesting casual talk with your friends, right? At least until they begin throwing things at you... :lol:

And you thought reading Internet forums wasn't a good use of your time, eh?

Ah, sorry BuShips, got the date mixed up there. You'll have to forgive my lysdexia. :wink: But yeah, it was just a little harmless jest. Though now that you've brought up more on the topic, I figured I'd toss in my two cents.

Not to throw out your definition of the term "kamikaze", but I was just going by my (limited) knowledge of the word. Double-checking on dictionary.com confirmed my understanding of the western use of the word:
1. (during World War II) a member of a special corps in the Japanese air force charged with the suicidal mission of crashing an aircraft laden with explosives into an enemy target, esp. a warship.
2. an airplane used for this purpose.
3. a person or thing that behaves in a wildly reckless or destructive manner: We were nearly run down by a kamikaze on a motorcycle.
–adjective 4. of, pertaining to, undertaken by, or characteristic of a kamikaze: a kamikaze pilot; a kamikaze attack.

So you see, even with its newfound use in English, it's still a bit limited in that it references suicidal air attacks, or simply reckless/destructive individuals. As opposed to giving one's life for an emperor/higher cause. Thus, the Yamato's actions couldn't really be considered a "kamikaze" action by any of those definitions.

Though you're right about the origins of many Japanese characters being Chinese, you have to consider that the same line of thought works with the English language and its various sources of origin. But then, I'm not entirely sure on the point you were getting at with that, so I'll just sort of end this line of thought here. :lol:

 

[DM]

The authors of dictionary.com were obviously oblivious to Japanese kamikaze submarines (Kaiten) and boats (Shinyo).

Another example of how slavish reliance on Internet resources must be avoided at allcosts!

 

[BuShips]

The authors of dictionary.com were obviously oblivious to Japanese kamikaze submarines (Kaiten) and boats (Shinyo).

Another example of how slavish reliance on Internet resources must be avoided at allcosts!

DM, you are quite right!

Quel, I wasn't really making a point as I was more of throwing in trivia that I thought was interesting. I've always considered the last mission of the Yamato as a Kamikaze mission, as the entire crew knew they were sacrificing themselves on a one-way mission to ground the ship as a gunnery platform to assist in the defense of Okinawa, and they were only provided fuel for a one-way trip. While they themselves probably didn't call it a "divine wind" mission and all have a shot of Saki, it was a suicide mission in deed if not in name. It was a Japanese version of the Charge of the Light Brigade, in a way.

 

[Quel]

I suppose I wasn't really clear in my last post. But I blame my early morning work hours. What I was trying to imply was that the word "kamikaze", with both its native Japanese definition, and its newfound English definition, doesn't exactly mean "suicide attack". Yes, I suppose you could consider that to be a definition for it based on the common usage. In the same sense you could consider "u" to mean "you" or "r" to mean "are" based on common usage. :wink: Granted, its English form does refer to suicidal air attacks, I don't quite think the Yamato could fly(Spaceship Yamato notwithstanding). :wink:

 

[Jellicoe]

Another interesting factoid regarding the Falklands battle was that Canopus' main guns were loaded with practice shells. They were fired out of the guns in the general direction of von Spee'ssquadron rather than being removed as it was a quicker way to reload. IIRC their ballistic qualities at long range were a bit different to those of the regular 12" rounds and they actually travelled further, landing close to the German ships, which encouraged them to make a dignified (but ultimately unsuccessful) withdrawl a bit earlier than they otherwise might have.

IIRC at least one other batteship was hit by a heavy calibre practice shell and I think some were fired off during the River Plate battle as well

(as an aside I was "shot" with a blank '303 at close range once - it bloody well hurt! These "practice rounds" can pack quite a punch!! :shock: )

Similar thing occurred at Gallipoli - well not really similar, but in the same league. The main reason why the various bombardments had little impact on the Turkish defences was because it was the wrong sort of ammunition being used. The big ships, like the battlecruisers and Queen Elisabeth carried virtually no HE shells. And most of the pre-dreadnoughts were rushed into service with reserve crews and had not had their ammunition stocks changed so they also carried mainly AP or practice rounds. These had little impact on the defences.

(yes, blank rounds are still painfull :shock: )

 

[Wulf Corbett]

I suppose I wasn't really clear in my last post. But I blame my early morning work hours. What I was trying to imply was that the word "kamikaze", with both its native Japanese definition, and its newfound English definition, doesn't exactly mean "suicide attack".

I always prefer Self Sacrifice attack, myself.

Wulf

 

[BuShips]

I suppose I wasn't really clear in my last post. But I blame my early morning work hours. What I was trying to imply was that the word "kamikaze", with both its native Japanese definition, and its newfound English definition, doesn't exactly mean "suicide attack". Yes, I suppose you could consider that to be a definition for it based on the common usage. In the same sense you could consider "u" to mean "you" or "r" to mean "are" based on common usage. :wink: Granted, its English form does refer to suicidal air attacks, I don't quite think the Yamato could fly(Spaceship Yamato notwithstanding). :wink:

I'm glad you wrote what you did, for others reading this may learn something new. For myself, I've known about the description of the typhoon that saved Japan from invasion and why it was then used for the "special attack units" in WW2. The western meaning is more broad than just "aerial suicide attack", as you stated very well. Yes, it was taken from the Japanese word "Divine Wind", but my rather long paragraph was offered as a bit of trivia that the Japanese kanji characters were not decoded using the Chinese root meaning, which was "shinpū". My trivia purpose was that although the meaning was still "Divine Wind", the English pronunciation should have been "Shinpū" and not "Kamikaze" as we in the west pronounce it. As to the meaning behind the word, DM mentioned above in his post that there is a wider meaning of the word, even if you still keep within the WW2 Japanese reference. This is taken from Wikipedia, and is meant as a general offering for all those reading this-

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"In these attacks Japanese pilots would deliberately attempt to crash their aircraft into naval vessels and other ships. Sometimes laden with explosives, extra bombs, and carrying full fuel tanks, their objective was to stop the Allied advance towards the Japanese home islands by causing as much damage and destruction as possible. Kamikaze attacks of this kind were the most common and best-known, however the Japanese made wider use of — or had plans for — suicide attacks by other Japanese personnel, including suicide torpedoes, boats, submarines (see Japanese Special Attack Units).

Since the end of the war the term has sometimes been used as a pars pro toto for other kinds of attack in which an attacker is deliberately sacrificed. These include a variety of suicide attacks, in other historical contexts, such as the proposed use of Selbstopfer aircraft by Nazi Germany and various suicide bombings by terrorist organizations around the world, such as the September 11, 2001 attacks.

In English, the word kamikaze may also be used in a hyperbolic or metaphorical fashion to refer to non-fatal actions which result in significant loss for the attacker, such as injury or the end of a career."
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I for one as a student of history couldn't believe the ignorance of people saying right after the Sept. 11 attack on the U.S. that the idea was a brand new tactic. I knew as soon as I saw the replay of the airliners crashing into the WTC there was a historical comparitive reference to be drawn from, and I was aghast at their ignorance of world history. The first few seconds that I saw the video images made me flash back to the many films I've seen over the years of the attacks on the US carrier task forces by desparate and very dedicated (and yes even heroic) individuals. To fight in war for your country with a mathematical chance of death is one thing, but to deliberately choose to die at a specific moment for a cause can either be perceived as sheer madness or supreme sacrifice depending on your perspective. I've grown up with a perspective that the aerial kamikaze attacks were flown by a bunch of brainwashed fools, but upon further contemplation I see them as a very patriotic collection of individuals that were doing their very best to protect their homeland and loved ones. I apologize for my own ignorance if I state here that as an American I can say on one hand the Japanese were heroic in their deeds in WW2 but the "Magnificent 19" of Sept. 11 2001 were brainwashed fools... :wink: