Ship Design Philosophy
- Thread starter Condottiere
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
This yo-yoing around is unhealthy, since in the dim recesses of my memory I'm fairly sure I raised the issue of minimum tonnage during the playtesting period, and was assured, there won't be any.
Ten's too arbitrary, it should be five, which will prevent more extreme forms of munchkinning.
Has anyone extensively tested out how the five hundred tonne bays compare in combat? I'm thinking of categorizing them as six incher equivalents, which makes starwarships equipped with them as the primary armament the equivalent of light cruisers.
Ten's too arbitrary, it should be five, which will prevent more extreme forms of munchkinning.
Has anyone extensively tested out how the five hundred tonne bays compare in combat? I'm thinking of categorizing them as six incher equivalents, which makes starwarships equipped with them as the primary armament the equivalent of light cruisers.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
MT said minimum 20 dT, so the "Kappoww" was a few decades ago?Sigtrygg said:
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
You can still build them as grav vehicles in MgT?
If you really want a "fighter" that loses thrust away from planets. I can't remember, how much do grav thrust taper off away from planets?
If you really want a "fighter" that loses thrust away from planets. I can't remember, how much do grav thrust taper off away from planets?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Hulls and The Unbearable Lightness of Being
In theory, almost anything that has one hull point could be turned into a spacecraft; the problem might be what happens if micro-damage reduces that below one. Catastrophic failure of hull integrity.
That's why you start off with two hull points, or a default five tonnes.
In theory, almost anything that has one hull point could be turned into a spacecraft; the problem might be what happens if micro-damage reduces that below one. Catastrophic failure of hull integrity.
That's why you start off with two hull points, or a default five tonnes.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Hulls, or All Sizes Matter!
Major combatants would appear to require a tad above twenty five thousand tonnes to qualify for that hull point bonus, while capital capital ships would need a wee bit over a hundred thousand. Which if you plan on skirting the borders would make for awkward sized drives.
Moving down the scale, five thousand tonnes should be the start of capital sized ships, though I don't recall any benefits accruing to that, beyond distributed arrays. Below ten thousand tonnes, spinal mounts have a dee emm penalty of minus four to hit it, so it would appear you have two categories of sizes between five thousand and one tonnes to nine thousand nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes, and one for ten thousand to twenty five thousand tonnes, which presumably is easier to hit at dee emm of minus two. Ships above ten thousand tonnes ignore critical hits from small bays, turrets and bays (and presumably any fixed mount below a thousand tonnes).
You can't really target a target below two thousand tonnes with a spinal mount, though there's this one tonne discrepancy in that you have a dee emm of minus two with a bay weapon to hit a target at two thousand tonnes or less. It jumps to a dee emm of plus four for three thousand tonnes or more, which gives two categories of one hundred to more or less two kay tonnes, and two kayish to two thousand nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes. Everything above two thousand tonnes ignores critical hits from turrets and barbette.
So the major size categories appear to be:
Microcraft
. I made this up
.. below two and a half tonnes
.. doesn't qualify for a hull point
Millicraft
. made it up as well
.. has one hull point
.. two and a halfish to below five tonnish
Minicraft
. made it up but I think it has a viable case
.. has two to three hull points
.. so five tonnish to below ten tonnes
. Smallish smallcraft
.. ten to thirty four tonnes
.. has cockpit option
.. has one firm point
. Less smallish smallcraft
.. thirty five to fifty tonnes
.. has cockpit option
.. has two firm points
. Superfluous smallcraft
.. fifty one to seventy tonnes
.. has two firm points
. The Notorious BIG smallcraft
.. seventy one to ninety nine tonnes
.. has three firm points
. It's a small universe after all small ship
.. one hundred tonnes to two hundred tonnes
.. ten tonne bridge
.. can jump to my lou
. Medium rare small ship
.. two hundred and one to one thousand tonnes
.. twenty tonne bridge
.. not lost in translation
. Tom Hanks small ship
.. one thousand and one to two thousand nights
.. forty tonne bridge
.. white men can jump
.. spinal tap immune, mostly
.. more difficult to be impressed
. Minor combatant
.. two thousand to two thousand nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes
.. sixty tonne bridge
. Not so minor combatant
.. three thousand to four thousand nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes
. Capital gained combatant
.. five thousand to nine thousand nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes
.. distributed array possible
.. dee emm penalty of minus four for spinal tapping
. Intermediate combatant
.. ten to twenty four thousand, plus nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes
.. ignores critical hits from small bays, turrets and bays (and presumably any fixed mount below a thousand tonnes)
. Major combatant ships
.. twenty five thousandish to almost hundred thousand tonnes
.. better hull point ratio
. Capital capital ships
.. hundred thousand tonnish plus
.. really attractive hull point ratio
.. only really vulnerable to spinal tapping and Michael Bey blockbusters
Major combatants would appear to require a tad above twenty five thousand tonnes to qualify for that hull point bonus, while capital capital ships would need a wee bit over a hundred thousand. Which if you plan on skirting the borders would make for awkward sized drives.
Moving down the scale, five thousand tonnes should be the start of capital sized ships, though I don't recall any benefits accruing to that, beyond distributed arrays. Below ten thousand tonnes, spinal mounts have a dee emm penalty of minus four to hit it, so it would appear you have two categories of sizes between five thousand and one tonnes to nine thousand nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes, and one for ten thousand to twenty five thousand tonnes, which presumably is easier to hit at dee emm of minus two. Ships above ten thousand tonnes ignore critical hits from small bays, turrets and bays (and presumably any fixed mount below a thousand tonnes).
You can't really target a target below two thousand tonnes with a spinal mount, though there's this one tonne discrepancy in that you have a dee emm of minus two with a bay weapon to hit a target at two thousand tonnes or less. It jumps to a dee emm of plus four for three thousand tonnes or more, which gives two categories of one hundred to more or less two kay tonnes, and two kayish to two thousand nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes. Everything above two thousand tonnes ignores critical hits from turrets and barbette.
So the major size categories appear to be:
Microcraft
. I made this up
.. below two and a half tonnes
.. doesn't qualify for a hull point
Millicraft
. made it up as well
.. has one hull point
.. two and a halfish to below five tonnish
Minicraft
. made it up but I think it has a viable case
.. has two to three hull points
.. so five tonnish to below ten tonnes
. Smallish smallcraft
.. ten to thirty four tonnes
.. has cockpit option
.. has one firm point
. Less smallish smallcraft
.. thirty five to fifty tonnes
.. has cockpit option
.. has two firm points
. Superfluous smallcraft
.. fifty one to seventy tonnes
.. has two firm points
. The Notorious BIG smallcraft
.. seventy one to ninety nine tonnes
.. has three firm points
. It's a small universe after all small ship
.. one hundred tonnes to two hundred tonnes
.. ten tonne bridge
.. can jump to my lou
. Medium rare small ship
.. two hundred and one to one thousand tonnes
.. twenty tonne bridge
.. not lost in translation
. Tom Hanks small ship
.. one thousand and one to two thousand nights
.. forty tonne bridge
.. white men can jump
.. spinal tap immune, mostly
.. more difficult to be impressed
. Minor combatant
.. two thousand to two thousand nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes
.. sixty tonne bridge
. Not so minor combatant
.. three thousand to four thousand nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes
. Capital gained combatant
.. five thousand to nine thousand nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes
.. distributed array possible
.. dee emm penalty of minus four for spinal tapping
. Intermediate combatant
.. ten to twenty four thousand, plus nine hundred and ninety nine tonnes
.. ignores critical hits from small bays, turrets and bays (and presumably any fixed mount below a thousand tonnes)
. Major combatant ships
.. twenty five thousandish to almost hundred thousand tonnes
.. better hull point ratio
. Capital capital ships
.. hundred thousand tonnish plus
.. really attractive hull point ratio
.. only really vulnerable to spinal tapping and Michael Bey blockbusters
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Not extensively, but I have tried it.Condottiere said:
The Large bay is not as efficient at dealing damage as smaller bays, but the DM to attack makes them excellent crit-fishers. Since crits are nerfed (HG, p23) crit-fishing only work on ships between 3000 dT to 5000 - 10000 dT, capital ships are immune. Such small ships are easier to kill with attritional damage.
So I have found them to be inefficient, it is better to use smaller bays.
No bay (except Plasma Pulse) even approaches the damage / dT efficiency of spinal mounts.
Large Missile bays works very well, since they are just as flexible as smaller bays and saves some gunners.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
That's a pity, I was hoping the five hundreder would have more capability, which leaves us with the lower rungs of the spinal mounts.
In the meantime, the future of Travelling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3154&v=GucYhhLwIxg
In the meantime, the future of Travelling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3154&v=GucYhhLwIxg
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Starships: Battleships
A battleship is a large armored warship with a main battery consisting of large caliber guns ... The value of the battleship has been questioned, even during the period of their prominence.[10] In spite of the immense resources spent on battleships, there were few pitched battleship clashes. Even with their enormous firepower and protection, battleships were increasingly vulnerable to much smaller, cheaper weapons: initially the torpedo and the naval mine, and later aircraft and the guided missile.[11] The growing range of naval engagements led to the aircraft carrier replacing the battleship as the leading capital ship ...
The definition tends to be very much tech level dependent. Unless I missed some explanatory text, the removal of caps on size by computer factor, which in turn was dependent on tech level.
Legacy designs seemed to have confirmed that at tech level fifteen, they weigh in at around two hundred thousand tonnes with ten to twelve factor armour, twenty four to thirty thousand tonne spinal mounts, and five/six acceleration factor.
These could be the equivalent of the fast battleships at around thirty five kay tonnes, since they have a standard fleet jump factor of four, with fourteen to sixteen inch guns.
That would place hundred kay designs at around breakout Dreadnought levels, with twelve inch guns, jump factor three, armour factor tennish, and acceleration four. And in theory, at tech level twelve.
Two hundred kay tonnes might be a holdover from tech level fourteen, probably due to bureaucratic inertia and budgetary constraints.
The lower rungs of the spinal mounts range between twenty eight to sixty hundred tonnes, depending on type, from defaults of thirty five to seventy five hundred.
The railguns should represent muzzle loaders, the particle accelerators high velocity guns that you need actual armour plating along the belt to stop, and mesons plunging fire. You could multiply the damage factor by fifty percent to get an equivalent incher, just for comparative purposes at that tech level, somehow modified by the actual size and manufactured tech level of the spinal mount.
Unlike what seems to happen with the battlecruiser, battleships are actually evolutionary designs, with a twenty five increase in capabilities, as compared to the battlecruiser, which seems to jump fifty percent in each sub category. The Dreadnought concept, all big gun ship with fast turbines, was a historical trend that was developed first by the British probably due to the needs of the service for greater efficiency in the utilization of all it's resources, basically operating budget and manpower bottlenecks, increasing pressure from the Germans in the North Sea, and Fisher's vision and drive. In almost all other cases, the British led from behind, allowing others to demonstrate the technology, and using it's industrial base to catch up and supersede rivals.
A battleship is a large armored warship with a main battery consisting of large caliber guns ... The value of the battleship has been questioned, even during the period of their prominence.[10] In spite of the immense resources spent on battleships, there were few pitched battleship clashes. Even with their enormous firepower and protection, battleships were increasingly vulnerable to much smaller, cheaper weapons: initially the torpedo and the naval mine, and later aircraft and the guided missile.[11] The growing range of naval engagements led to the aircraft carrier replacing the battleship as the leading capital ship ...
The definition tends to be very much tech level dependent. Unless I missed some explanatory text, the removal of caps on size by computer factor, which in turn was dependent on tech level.
Legacy designs seemed to have confirmed that at tech level fifteen, they weigh in at around two hundred thousand tonnes with ten to twelve factor armour, twenty four to thirty thousand tonne spinal mounts, and five/six acceleration factor.
These could be the equivalent of the fast battleships at around thirty five kay tonnes, since they have a standard fleet jump factor of four, with fourteen to sixteen inch guns.
That would place hundred kay designs at around breakout Dreadnought levels, with twelve inch guns, jump factor three, armour factor tennish, and acceleration four. And in theory, at tech level twelve.
Two hundred kay tonnes might be a holdover from tech level fourteen, probably due to bureaucratic inertia and budgetary constraints.
The lower rungs of the spinal mounts range between twenty eight to sixty hundred tonnes, depending on type, from defaults of thirty five to seventy five hundred.
The railguns should represent muzzle loaders, the particle accelerators high velocity guns that you need actual armour plating along the belt to stop, and mesons plunging fire. You could multiply the damage factor by fifty percent to get an equivalent incher, just for comparative purposes at that tech level, somehow modified by the actual size and manufactured tech level of the spinal mount.
Unlike what seems to happen with the battlecruiser, battleships are actually evolutionary designs, with a twenty five increase in capabilities, as compared to the battlecruiser, which seems to jump fifty percent in each sub category. The Dreadnought concept, all big gun ship with fast turbines, was a historical trend that was developed first by the British probably due to the needs of the service for greater efficiency in the utilization of all it's resources, basically operating budget and manpower bottlenecks, increasing pressure from the Germans in the North Sea, and Fisher's vision and drive. In almost all other cases, the British led from behind, allowing others to demonstrate the technology, and using it's industrial base to catch up and supersede rivals.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Starships: Pocket Battleship
I bet the first thought that came into your mind would be Deutschland class; that would wrong on many levels.
The Deutschlands might have been proto battlecruisers, thirty years before they were built, they certainly had the speed and armament, but not the armour. Their primary weaponry had been in the longer rungs of capital ship weaponry by the time of Jutland, and with only two turrets, no real redundancy in case they were damaged. The Deutschlands were heavily armed heavy cruisers optimized for the commerce raider role.
So the question is, what are pocket battleships?
At best, they would have a hundred kay hull, armed with a big particle accelerator spinal mount, but lightly armoured for a battleship; they'd have to be able to outrun a battleship, whether strategically or tactically, which puts them in the battlecruiser category.
Pocket battleships would be using every technique to compensate for their smaller size, but shouldn't be able to outrun a battlecruiser, just make the battlecruiser leery on tackling one on it's own.
If you go closer to the Deutschland definition, you have to work with a cruiser hull, which is twenty five to ninety nine kay. Twenty five is too small, ninety nine would be illogical. That makes the range between fifty to seventy five thousand tonnes. In theory, late armoured cruisers would be fiftyish kay. Maybe a ten thousand tonne particle accelerator.
Ideally, what you want is a deep strike cruiser with Ferrari engines, but what you end up with is a heavily armed strike cruiser that can get to the gas giant before a pursuing battleship.
I bet the first thought that came into your mind would be Deutschland class; that would wrong on many levels.
The Deutschlands might have been proto battlecruisers, thirty years before they were built, they certainly had the speed and armament, but not the armour. Their primary weaponry had been in the longer rungs of capital ship weaponry by the time of Jutland, and with only two turrets, no real redundancy in case they were damaged. The Deutschlands were heavily armed heavy cruisers optimized for the commerce raider role.
So the question is, what are pocket battleships?
At best, they would have a hundred kay hull, armed with a big particle accelerator spinal mount, but lightly armoured for a battleship; they'd have to be able to outrun a battleship, whether strategically or tactically, which puts them in the battlecruiser category.
Pocket battleships would be using every technique to compensate for their smaller size, but shouldn't be able to outrun a battlecruiser, just make the battlecruiser leery on tackling one on it's own.
If you go closer to the Deutschland definition, you have to work with a cruiser hull, which is twenty five to ninety nine kay. Twenty five is too small, ninety nine would be illogical. That makes the range between fifty to seventy five thousand tonnes. In theory, late armoured cruisers would be fiftyish kay. Maybe a ten thousand tonne particle accelerator.
Ideally, what you want is a deep strike cruiser with Ferrari engines, but what you end up with is a heavily armed strike cruiser that can get to the gas giant before a pursuing battleship.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceship: Planetoid Jeep
You get a ten tonne sized hunk of rock, which is going to leave you with eight tonnes of usable volume.
You install a three tonne bridge, basic sensors, one tonne manoeuvre drive, one tonne power plant, and a one tonne fuel tank.
That's one point six in basic ship functions, and with a tech level eight power plant, eight point four scotts to spare; with hundred tonnes of thrust that would mean a possible acceleration of factor ten at tech level sixteen, nine at thirteen, eight point six at thirteen, seven at twelve, five at eleven.
Two tonnes for either cargo, passengers or a mini stateroom.
You get a ten tonne sized hunk of rock, which is going to leave you with eight tonnes of usable volume.
You install a three tonne bridge, basic sensors, one tonne manoeuvre drive, one tonne power plant, and a one tonne fuel tank.
That's one point six in basic ship functions, and with a tech level eight power plant, eight point four scotts to spare; with hundred tonnes of thrust that would mean a possible acceleration of factor ten at tech level sixteen, nine at thirteen, eight point six at thirteen, seven at twelve, five at eleven.
Two tonnes for either cargo, passengers or a mini stateroom.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceship: Planetoid Jeep
If you use a tech level eight budget power plant, you have a decrease of both a quarter in terms of price and energy output, so basically seven point five scotts, at three hundred seventy five schmuckers.
A budget manoeuvre drive would have a similar decrease in thrust and cost, so seventy five tons at one point six megaschmuckers.
The ten tonne planetoid costs forty kay schmuckers.
Performance wise, you'd have a surplus of six point one scotts, which would give sixty one tonnes of thrust. Use a tech level eleven engine, and you can have acceleration factor five.
If you use a tech level eight budget power plant, you have a decrease of both a quarter in terms of price and energy output, so basically seven point five scotts, at three hundred seventy five schmuckers.
A budget manoeuvre drive would have a similar decrease in thrust and cost, so seventy five tons at one point six megaschmuckers.
The ten tonne planetoid costs forty kay schmuckers.
Performance wise, you'd have a surplus of six point one scotts, which would give sixty one tonnes of thrust. Use a tech level eleven engine, and you can have acceleration factor five.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceship: Cherry Bomb
The Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka (櫻花 Ōka?, "cherry blossom"; 桜花 in modern orthography) was a purpose-built, rocket powered human-guided anti-shipping kamikaze attack plane[1] employed by Japan towards the end of World War II. United States sailors gave the aircraft the nickname Baka[2] (Japanese for "fool" or "idiot").[3]
The MXY-7 Navy Suicide Attacker Ohka was a manned flying bomb that was usually carried underneath a Mitsubishi G4M2e "Betty" Model 24J bomber to within range of its target. On release, the pilot would first glide towards the target and when close enough he would fire the Ohka's three solid-fuel rockets, one at a time or in unison,[4] and fly the missile towards the ship that he intended to destroy.
So we take the planetoid jeep, and replace fusion plant and manoeuvre drive with either a thrust twelve or thrust fifteen reaction rocket, which would take up either two point four tonnes, or three tonnes respectively, plus a small battery to power the ship systems during it's flight.
The twelver you'd use if you release the cherry bomb at long range, since it would hit immediately; the fifteener at very long range, so that the pilot could contemplate the meaning of existence for the next twelve minutes.
The Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka (櫻花 Ōka?, "cherry blossom"; 桜花 in modern orthography) was a purpose-built, rocket powered human-guided anti-shipping kamikaze attack plane[1] employed by Japan towards the end of World War II. United States sailors gave the aircraft the nickname Baka[2] (Japanese for "fool" or "idiot").[3]
The MXY-7 Navy Suicide Attacker Ohka was a manned flying bomb that was usually carried underneath a Mitsubishi G4M2e "Betty" Model 24J bomber to within range of its target. On release, the pilot would first glide towards the target and when close enough he would fire the Ohka's three solid-fuel rockets, one at a time or in unison,[4] and fly the missile towards the ship that he intended to destroy.
So we take the planetoid jeep, and replace fusion plant and manoeuvre drive with either a thrust twelve or thrust fifteen reaction rocket, which would take up either two point four tonnes, or three tonnes respectively, plus a small battery to power the ship systems during it's flight.
The twelver you'd use if you release the cherry bomb at long range, since it would hit immediately; the fifteener at very long range, so that the pilot could contemplate the meaning of existence for the next twelve minutes.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Engineering, and I Feel The Need
You'd think that with a big enough motor, you'd be able to pretty much go as fast you want.
So the question is, why at tech level nine, you can only accelerate one gee? Because if the answer is inertial compensators, why can we go with reaction rockets at nine gees?
And if we can go at sixteen gees for an extended period, aren't our crews and passengers going to turn to mush?
You'd think that with a big enough motor, you'd be able to pretty much go as fast you want.
So the question is, why at tech level nine, you can only accelerate one gee? Because if the answer is inertial compensators, why can we go with reaction rockets at nine gees?
And if we can go at sixteen gees for an extended period, aren't our crews and passengers going to turn to mush?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
And now you've found a use for that screen.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Armaments and Quad Turrets
Implication: turret weaponry takes up 0.125 tonnes, and therefore, so should fixed mounts.
I think I can live with squeezing out an extra scott to power it, so you have to wonder, who'd want a single turret? Besides a light fighter.
Implication: turret weaponry takes up 0.125 tonnes, and therefore, so should fixed mounts.
I think I can live with squeezing out an extra scott to power it, so you have to wonder, who'd want a single turret? Besides a light fighter.
