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Anonymous
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Does the Star port book cover this stuff?
Ship Design Philosophy
- Thread starter Condottiere
- Start date
Not that I know of, I wouldn't pull it on players anyways, the starports book does have some fiddly stuff around building a starport and what it does. Mostly I have used it for encounters and ships, I should read it some more to see if I can get more out of it, I was just reading through scoundrel though. Did use the encounters to give the player's a refrigerated box of adrenochrome, after rolling trader & illegal biologicals.
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dragoner said:
I'd see it as part of your berthing costs, the more you pay the closer to the 100D limit your jump exit is in your target system. They'd be for sale in all the neighbouring systems, buy multiple visits in one hit and get a better price.
Price the jump exits close to the gas giants extortionately to encourage people to come visit your star port, buy your fuel and trade.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
1. Starport location - if you have enough traffic, you could extend the starport through terminals placed near official departure and entry points, so that ships can dock there, tank up, reload and get out; I think the prime resource and bottleneck is time, and if the starport offers a fast turnover, that probably be the second most important reason commercial ships go there.
2. Scheduled starship entry point - the code would be encrypted and seemingly random, so that pirates and hijackers can't be waiting for you; or at least, you'll have enough distance to be able to make a run for it.
3. Enclosed planetoid ship - basically, you're paying four or five thousand schmuckers per tonne for artificial gravity, inertial compensators, wiring, datalines and plumbing, and that includes drilling costs, so that's about three hundred and ninty thousand schmuckers, grand total MCr 0.44, for a hundred tonne hull, that because it has the armour plate on the outside, instead of integrating it with the planetoid, makes it potentially streamlined, and the planetoid structure itself supports the armoured shell.
2. Scheduled starship entry point - the code would be encrypted and seemingly random, so that pirates and hijackers can't be waiting for you; or at least, you'll have enough distance to be able to make a run for it.
3. Enclosed planetoid ship - basically, you're paying four or five thousand schmuckers per tonne for artificial gravity, inertial compensators, wiring, datalines and plumbing, and that includes drilling costs, so that's about three hundred and ninty thousand schmuckers, grand total MCr 0.44, for a hundred tonne hull, that because it has the armour plate on the outside, instead of integrating it with the planetoid, makes it potentially streamlined, and the planetoid structure itself supports the armoured shell.
hiro said:
Sure, if in it doesn't de-incentivize ships to come through your system, it might be better to bump berthing fees across the board, and then drop the price of refined fuel at the highport. A thousand ways to give local color to the economics of running a starport, which the starports book does do a system for starport's economics. Depends on how you want to do it, ships and shipping companies could rent their spot long term, both where they precipitate from jump and their berths. Transport terminals out in the Lagrange Points also, both at the main and/or gg.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Hulls and Artificial Gravity
Going by Space Stations, artificial gravity was discovered at tech level eight, but there's no significant cost involved (except possibly in research and development), demonstrated by the fact there is no difference in cost between a gravitated and a non-gravitated hull at tech level eight.
Inertial compensators are invested at tech level nine, since you can then start accelerating at factor six and above. You probably could do that before that discovery, but the passengers wouldn't have survived that for an extended period.
How sophisticated that artificial gravity could be controlled is up to question, though I'll speculate that they could generate a field for upto two gravities at tech level eight.
Going by Space Stations, artificial gravity was discovered at tech level eight, but there's no significant cost involved (except possibly in research and development), demonstrated by the fact there is no difference in cost between a gravitated and a non-gravitated hull at tech level eight.
Inertial compensators are invested at tech level nine, since you can then start accelerating at factor six and above. You probably could do that before that discovery, but the passengers wouldn't have survived that for an extended period.
How sophisticated that artificial gravity could be controlled is up to question, though I'll speculate that they could generate a field for upto two gravities at tech level eight.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Armed and Conceptual
Long Range Strike Bomber, optimized to carry a hefty stand off missile punch, so likely a hundred tonne torpedo bay, meant to be refuel at least once, and be somewhat of a surprise, so range five parsecs, manoeuvre six, stealth jump, stealth, four hundred tonnes.
Long Range Strike Bomber, optimized to carry a hefty stand off missile punch, so likely a hundred tonne torpedo bay, meant to be refuel at least once, and be somewhat of a surprise, so range five parsecs, manoeuvre six, stealth jump, stealth, four hundred tonnes.
Condottiere said:
Nice picture. I did a quick build to see if you could arrive at those performance figures. Not gonna be easy at all without some real wizard work on tech levels, and advanced components. Engines alone take up 125 tons. Fuel another 200 leaving only 75 tons for other systems
Problem is that Jump-5, jump-6 drives are already such high tech levels you cant buy them at higher tech levels to reduce their tonnage....and then there is fuel. Unless you use Drop tanks for the outbound leg of a trip, then make short hops home long range at low tonnage is a pain in the butt.
I have tried to come up with a jump 5 thrust 6 courier, no weapons or armor and basically came up with something that had room for crew and nothing else....a few tons for possible mail packet was almost impossible to come up with unless you bought up tech levels to tech 15. for power plants, and jump drives, as well as M-drives.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Probably needs drop tanks just for that last leg before attacking, since you'd like at least eleven percent fuel in your tanks so that you can transition out immediately to rendezvous with the tankers for the return leg without worrying about the hornets whose nest you may have just poked or blown up.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Gunboat, Lifeboat and Infantry Fighting Vehicle
It doesn't really have to be fast, since grav factor one is sufficient, has about twelve percent of volume dedicated to armour, can have pilot and gunner, needs a sG power plant for the laser mounted on the turret, armoury, and enough space for a thirteenish man squad and their equipment, in a twenty tonne hull.
A reluctance by the Solomani Navy in getting grav vehicles to support their Confederation Marines made me believe this was the likely alternative, since grav vehcles would be more Armyish.
It doesn't really have to be fast, since grav factor one is sufficient, has about twelve percent of volume dedicated to armour, can have pilot and gunner, needs a sG power plant for the laser mounted on the turret, armoury, and enough space for a thirteenish man squad and their equipment, in a twenty tonne hull.
A reluctance by the Solomani Navy in getting grav vehicles to support their Confederation Marines made me believe this was the likely alternative, since grav vehcles would be more Armyish.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Fire Control
Do you need a separate fire control for your weaponry? The rule books say so, so it must be so.
The description for bay weapons clearly spells it out as a requirement, and that extra tonne always gets tagged on in every ship profile I can recall.
Spinal mounts are so large, that one more or less tonne is irrelevant. Probably, but since the weapon system points at where the ship's nose is, fire control would be tied in with flight controls.
That would include fixed mounts, which presumably would also be nosely pointed, but not guided ordnance like missiles and torpedoes.
Missiles and torpedoes will need separate fire control consoles, regardless whether they are in bays, turrrets, barbettes or fixed mountings.
Outside of the ship's main computer to coordinate the ship's armament and defensive systems, you'll need a fire control console for every individual remote controlled battery.
There should be three basic types, one that can switch from system to system, like the ship's computer, one that is dedicated to an pre-allocated battery, and another type that can allocate for itself available (but single type) weapons and create a battery from them.
Sandcasters are a little tricky, since adding on an extra tonne makes them less attractive in comparison to lasers and missiles, but would seem a necessity if you take the sabotted missile option. Also. you'd like the optimal placement of that canister to intercept that missile or beam.
Do you need a separate fire control for your weaponry? The rule books say so, so it must be so.
The description for bay weapons clearly spells it out as a requirement, and that extra tonne always gets tagged on in every ship profile I can recall.
Spinal mounts are so large, that one more or less tonne is irrelevant. Probably, but since the weapon system points at where the ship's nose is, fire control would be tied in with flight controls.
That would include fixed mounts, which presumably would also be nosely pointed, but not guided ordnance like missiles and torpedoes.
Missiles and torpedoes will need separate fire control consoles, regardless whether they are in bays, turrrets, barbettes or fixed mountings.
Outside of the ship's main computer to coordinate the ship's armament and defensive systems, you'll need a fire control console for every individual remote controlled battery.
There should be three basic types, one that can switch from system to system, like the ship's computer, one that is dedicated to an pre-allocated battery, and another type that can allocate for itself available (but single type) weapons and create a battery from them.
Sandcasters are a little tricky, since adding on an extra tonne makes them less attractive in comparison to lasers and missiles, but would seem a necessity if you take the sabotted missile option. Also. you'd like the optimal placement of that canister to intercept that missile or beam.
Condottiere said:
Consider it this way, The term "firecontrol" is just shorthand for the stuff inside the ship that makes the turret and attached weapons work. You could call it "support hardware"," turret subsystems", "power distribution, mechanical support and data sub-assembly", Anything you choose. Firecontrol just looks better, and takes up less space than "random stuff that makes the turret work"
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Fire control seems inconsistently applied, though you could have the central computer take over, though capacity limitations and degraded performance are likely, though separate dedicated computers supervised by a main computer is the solution.
Condottiere said:
It's another of those quick dirty generalized rules that came into existence way back when, and haven't been modernized...Trying to look at it too precisely as representing the computer hardware of the system, and coming up with a flexible variable based on tonnage of weapon system... leads to Headaches.
so I'v mentally converted the firecontrol category, into a place holder for the random bits needed to support a weapons system, electronics, hardware, power conduits, etc...instead of just a computer ...since unlike 1970s computers now fit in my pocket, not in a large room. Headcaches gone....its not based off of tonnage of what it's plugged into since your basically just figuring out the total vloume of the bits and pieces attached to it connect the weapon system to the ships systems.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Armaments and Meson upgrades
A/14.II
. 2'000 tonnes
A/13.I
. 3'000 tonnes
A/12.I
. 4'000 tonnes
A/11.I
. 5'000 tonnes
B/14.III
. 5'600 tonnes
C/14.IV
. 6'000 tonnes
B/13.II
. 6'400 tonnes
B/12.II
. 7'200 tonnes
B/11.I
. 8'000 tonnes
C/13.IV
. 8'000 tonnes
C/12.III
. 10'000 tonnes
D/14.V
. 11'200 tonnes
D/13.IV
. 14'000 tonnes
A/14.II
. 2'000 tonnes
A/13.I
. 3'000 tonnes
A/12.I
. 4'000 tonnes
A/11.I
. 5'000 tonnes
B/14.III
. 5'600 tonnes
C/14.IV
. 6'000 tonnes
B/13.II
. 6'400 tonnes
B/12.II
. 7'200 tonnes
B/11.I
. 8'000 tonnes
C/13.IV
. 8'000 tonnes
C/12.III
. 10'000 tonnes
D/14.V
. 11'200 tonnes
D/13.IV
. 14'000 tonnes
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Armaments and Meson upgrades
You may have wondered what the above is in aid of.
Generally speaking, ye hulle is cheap, and yon armament and sensor suite are the real cost drivers, but you have to wonder at a hundred thousand tonne hull that costs ten billion schmuckers basic, especially since the Solomani appear to have chosen the wedge as their standard configuration, which costs twenty percent more.
And since the hulls and armour are crystaliron, I'm going to say that any world with a tech level ten and above can repair it, until you hit tech level fourteen hulls, and then it's more cementing over the cracks.
And like PCs, in theory that most PC cases are cheap, and really meant to hold the components in place. Though I have a bunch manufactured by Lian Li.
So that's a compelling reason for the Solomani Navy to keep their hulls, since it would appear there is little cause for spaceframe fatigue.
However, one you've set the space allocation for a spinal mount, you're more or less stuck with it, so like your computer components, you may want an upgrade path.
You may have wondered what the above is in aid of.
Generally speaking, ye hulle is cheap, and yon armament and sensor suite are the real cost drivers, but you have to wonder at a hundred thousand tonne hull that costs ten billion schmuckers basic, especially since the Solomani appear to have chosen the wedge as their standard configuration, which costs twenty percent more.
And since the hulls and armour are crystaliron, I'm going to say that any world with a tech level ten and above can repair it, until you hit tech level fourteen hulls, and then it's more cementing over the cracks.
And like PCs, in theory that most PC cases are cheap, and really meant to hold the components in place. Though I have a bunch manufactured by Lian Li.
So that's a compelling reason for the Solomani Navy to keep their hulls, since it would appear there is little cause for spaceframe fatigue.
However, one you've set the space allocation for a spinal mount, you're more or less stuck with it, so like your computer components, you may want an upgrade path.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Starship: Rigid (Hull) Inflated Boat design
Probably a more realistic version of this would be having the roof detachable, and having bladders attached to the hull proper and the roof, when inflated acting as the wall, thus creating a penthouse.
You probably could do this in any direction, but doing it on the roof ensures no compromising the bottom of the hull, the part most stressed in landings, and the artificial bravity modules can be inbuilt on the lower part of the penthouse. Possibly the roof as well.
Probably a more realistic version of this would be having the roof detachable, and having bladders attached to the hull proper and the roof, when inflated acting as the wall, thus creating a penthouse.
You probably could do this in any direction, but doing it on the roof ensures no compromising the bottom of the hull, the part most stressed in landings, and the artificial bravity modules can be inbuilt on the lower part of the penthouse. Possibly the roof as well.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Spaceships: Engineering and Energy Points
So it looks like basic ship systems require one energy point per five tonnes, the manoeuvre drive one energy point per factor per ten tonnes.
Maintaining the jump bubble looks like it requires one energy point per factor per ten tonnes.
Depending on precisely what is defined as basic ship systems that needed to remain under power in jump space, a hundred tonne ship could jump one parsec and emerge with the crew still alive with a power plant chugging out thirty energy points.
So it looks like basic ship systems require one energy point per five tonnes, the manoeuvre drive one energy point per factor per ten tonnes.
Maintaining the jump bubble looks like it requires one energy point per factor per ten tonnes.
Depending on precisely what is defined as basic ship systems that needed to remain under power in jump space, a hundred tonne ship could jump one parsec and emerge with the crew still alive with a power plant chugging out thirty energy points.
Thats pretty close to what the Beta says...
system percentage of total tonnage
basic systems 20%
Jump drive 10%
M-drive 10%
weapons
Missile 1pt
sandcaster 1pt
lasers 4pts (both pulse and beam)
particle beams 8pts
so it look like you average 100 ton ship needs
30 points to cruise, and 42 points to fire off a triple laser turret.
it also means the Free Trader listed has to cut back on something to maneuver and fire it's weapons..so in combat you can just about assume they have killed life support, and are in EVA suits. A 100 ton scout can cruise, operate it's systems, and fire off weapons at the same time..or cruise, power up hyper-drive, and fire with it's systems on low power use.
also it looks like a type A power plant generates 60 power points...based on the type A drives being the type that give a 200 ton free trader thrust one.
however the J-drive for a jump three 60 ton ship only generates 360 power..which means it's not a smooth progression, it's either based on tonnage, or has incremental jumps. since a 200 ton yacht with 1 g drives generates 90pts....I'll leave it to someone who passed high school algebra to figure out.
I think I am going to need a bigger supply of aspirin when it comes to rewriting my ships...
But,ahhhh the joys of tinkering with ship building..can't wait ( seriously i cant wait.)
system percentage of total tonnage
basic systems 20%
Jump drive 10%
M-drive 10%
weapons
Missile 1pt
sandcaster 1pt
lasers 4pts (both pulse and beam)
particle beams 8pts
so it look like you average 100 ton ship needs
30 points to cruise, and 42 points to fire off a triple laser turret.
it also means the Free Trader listed has to cut back on something to maneuver and fire it's weapons..so in combat you can just about assume they have killed life support, and are in EVA suits. A 100 ton scout can cruise, operate it's systems, and fire off weapons at the same time..or cruise, power up hyper-drive, and fire with it's systems on low power use.
also it looks like a type A power plant generates 60 power points...based on the type A drives being the type that give a 200 ton free trader thrust one.
however the J-drive for a jump three 60 ton ship only generates 360 power..which means it's not a smooth progression, it's either based on tonnage, or has incremental jumps. since a 200 ton yacht with 1 g drives generates 90pts....I'll leave it to someone who passed high school algebra to figure out.
I think I am going to need a bigger supply of aspirin when it comes to rewriting my ships...
But,ahhhh the joys of tinkering with ship building..can't wait ( seriously i cant wait.)
