Shields

[Sir Salt]

Hi all

Hope this hasn't been posted elsewhere, I did look.

Awesome game, I was just wondering though, if anyone else dislikes the rolling an extra d6, when shields are used? It seems pointless, and just more dice rolling.

I was thinking of configuring the '1' to the initial to hit roll

Best of luck

EDIT: Why are some skill rolls done on a 1d20 (Tracking p63, Climbing p64), and others done on a 2d10?

 

[Sir Salt]

Bump* (Primarily for the 'EDIT' question)

 

[kintire]

The extra d6 thing is pretty quick. And because it isn't the attacker rolling, it can be done by the defender at the same time.

As for your second question, guess its because some skills are supposed to be more reliable than others, so some are on a bell curve 210 and others on a more random d20. And, of course, the game was written before the drive to streamline. Its pretty simple compared to AD&D!

 

[Sir Salt]

Good point on the shield dice roll.

As for the second point, I was thinking along the same lines. No dount DW is influenced by DnD.

So far I've spotted rolls consisting of 1d20, 2d20, 3d6, all a 'roll under', a roll over armour factor roll, and a few d100 rolls, again rolling under.

I'm impressed with DW, I intend running it, but I think it will be a few weeks before I actually do so. For me, DW is a really good game, but the different task resolution rolls stops it from being an awesome game.

 

[Sir Salt]

Going back through the book, there really doesn't seem to be a pattern to the 1d20 or 2d10 task rolls. It seems totally random. So I was wondering if anyone had adopted either a 1d20 or a 2d10 task roll for everything.

Would it make any real difference if I decided to base all the rolls on say, a 2d10 format?

 

[rabindranath72]

Going back through the book, there really doesn't seem to be a pattern to the 1d20 or 2d10 task rolls. It seems totally random. So I was wondering if anyone had adopted either a 1d20 or a 2d10 task roll for everything.

Would it make any real difference if I decided to base all the rolls on say, a 2d10 format?

Well, when you add two (or more dice) the extremes become much rarer. So, for example, to get a 20 with 1d20, you have a 5% chance. To get a 20 with 2d10, the chance is 1%, five times smaller. I guess it depends on your preference.

 

[Sir Salt]

I'd go with the 2d10 then. I see criticals and heroic actions (I.e. lowest, highest rolls on a die) as being quite rare.

 

[Sir Salt]

Unfortunately I won't be playing Dragon Warriors. I decided there were too many differing types of rolls to resolve tasks. I typed up some of them:

Bloodrage page 28
To shrug off bloodrage, roll equal to or less than Intelligence on a 1d20

Appraise Enemy page 39
Roll equal to or less than the Warlock’s Psychic Talent on a 1d20

Inner Sense page 43
Roll equal to or less than assassin’s Psychic Talent on a 1d20

Pilfer page 47
Roll equal to or less than Perception on a 1d20

Locked Doors page 62 (and breaking them down)
Roll equal to or less than strength on a 1d20

Tracking page 63
Roll equal to or less than Perception on a 1d20

Climbing page 64
Roll equal to or less than Reflexes on a 1d20

Ok up to now, things are looking smooth. No worries. But then this:

Surprise page 61
Roll a 1 on a 1d6 to surprise

Stealth & Perception page 62
Subtract Perception from Stealth and roll equal to or less on a 2d10

Attacking page 66
Deduct Defence from Attack and roll equal to or less on a 1d20

Resisting Direct Magic Attack page 75
Deduct Magic Defence from Magic Attack and roll equal to or less than on a 2d10 (<--Why change it from the 1d20 attack roll above?)

Armour Bypass Roll page 67
Roll a dice and get higher than the Armour Factor to penetrate armour

Shields page 68
Roll a d6 and get a 1 to avoid a blow

Missile Combat 68
Simply roll equal to or less than missile attack score on a 1d20

Evading an Attack page 71
Deduct Evasion from Attack Speed Rating and roll equal to or less on a 2d10

Mystics Avoiding Fatigue page 74
Roll equal to or less than 13+ Mystic’s rank on a 1d20

Spell Expiry page 77
Roll 2d6, on a roll of 2-11 the spell continues.

Spell Expiry [Warlocks] page 77
Roll a 1d20, on a roll of 1-19 the spell continue…

Avoiding Poison page 122
Roll equal to or less than Strength on 3d6

Morale Checks page 122
Deduct creature’s Attack score from victims Rank+Strength+Intelligence, roll equal to or under on a 1d20

Fright Attack page 122
Roll 1d12, deduct victim’s rank, the result is the number the attacker must roll equal to or less than on a 2d10 to scare its victim

<snip> I gave up on page 122.

Was the text of the old books just copy and pasted in huge chunks? Surely this is a step back as far as a rules system is concerned. I know it's retro, I know it's nostalgia, and yes I enjoyed that touch, but this as far as I am concerned is just not on.

Or perhaps I'm just an old 40 year old. Anyway, I hope you enjoy DW, i think there is a gem of a game hidden under all this. Perhaps I'll see you in the 2 edition

Best of luck all.

 

[WaylanderPK]

Frankly I don't see a problem
Most of thing you listed are in fact the same resolution system, using different dice or against a different Skll. Different dice combination's have different distributions, so they have a valid reason to use them. It's also not that different than any other RPG I can think of, and having Roleplayed for nigh on 27 years I can say with some certainty that DW is one of the easisit, fastest and enjoyable systems I've played.

I hope you give your plan to not DW a second thought, because my players and I are having a blast with it.

 

[Sir Salt]

Perhaps, though I do think it's a hangover from an earlier age, and it doesn't sit well with me.

I would love to see a unified rule system come out for DW. I was thinking of going with 'just' a 2d10 roll, but I don't know the thinking behind the designer's reasons for 1d20. So I don't know if I'll be screwing something up further down the line.

 

[rabindranath72]

I would suggest to try both alternatives and see which one you like.

 

[hal]

I would love to see a unified rule system come out for DW. I was thinking of going with 'just' a 2d10 roll, but I don't know the thinking behind the designer's reasons for 1d20. So I don't know if I'll be screwing something up further down the line.

One advantage of not having a modern unified system is that DW is very robust when it comes to tinkering. Use 2d10 and don't sweat the detail.

As to the lack of a unified system, DW in its day did have a much better "core mechanic" than most RPGs. By today's standards it doesn't. Then again, the reprinted DW has always been advertised as a reprint and not a revision and I respect the decision.

 

[Sir Salt]

That's very true to be fair. There was no misleading, they are reprints and nothing more was promised.

I've decided to go with the 2d10 task roll (1% chance of min/max) as opposed to the 1d20 task roll (5% chance of min/max) rolls. I think my DW setting will be grittier that way. Which makes sense overall

 

[Cowboy]

Back in the day, I assumed the 2d10 was an error that hadn't been caught before the book went to press and used 1d20 for everything with no problems.

Now with the new book, I'll still consider it an error (even if it's one that was made intentionally) and use 1d20 for everything.

The reason being, that characters will have final target #s lower than 11 more often than over 11 and I don't want success to be too elusive. (An average knight or barbarian against another average knight or barbarian of the same rank will have a t# to hit no greater than 8 for barbarian vs barbarian and as low as 6 for knight vs knight - with 2d10 the whiff factor will become intolerable IMHO)

 

[hal]

Back in the day, I assumed the 2d10 was an error that hadn't been caught before the book went to press and used 1d20 for everything with no problems.

Now with the new book, I'll still consider it an error (even if it's one that was made intentionally) and use 1d20 for everything.

The reason being, that characters will have final target #s lower than 11 more often than over 11 and I don't want success to be too elusive. (An average knight or barbarian against another average knight or barbarian of the same rank will have a t# to hit no greater than 8 for barbarian vs barbarian and as low as 6 for knight vs knight - with 2d10 the whiff factor will become intolerable IMHO)

I agree. I personally use a 1d20 as it is less punishing as the stats get further apart and therefore less likely to cause an issue as a mod. Moving to a 2d10 for all cases may cause some situations where success or failure is almost impossible.

 

[Sir Salt]

Going by the above posts, I think I've found some errata. I haven't seen this anywhere else, so I'll type it up:

Stealth & Perception page 62
Subtract Perception from Stealth and roll equal to or less on a 2d10.

Witnesses page 192
The criminal is allowed a Stealth Roll to see if he goes unnoticed. For this, the GM must have PERCEPTION scores for the potential witnesses. He makes a d20 roll to see who they are.

I'm assuming it's a 'Perception deducted from Stealth' (as per page 62 above) mechanic, but in the instances above, we have it rolled on a 1d20 and 2d10.

 

[Cowboy]

GWitnesses page 192
The criminal is allowed a Stealth Roll to see if he goes unnoticed. For this, the GM must have PERCEPTION scores for the potential witnesses. He makes a d20 roll to see who they are.

I'm assuming it's a 'Perception deducted from Stealth' (as per page 62 above) mechanic, but in the instances above, we have it rolled on a 1d20 and 2d10.

Nope, it's a straight d20 roll compared to the table immediately below that sentence. It's not a success check at all, it's just a roll to determine who witnessed the crime.

 

[Sir Salt]

You are right, thank you

 

[wimlach]

Here's a reply to this topic that I originally posted in the DragWars mailing group:


It simply gives a different probability curve, which may be more appropriate for the type of check being made (I've not gone through the rules to see if this is actually consistent). I believe common checks, or those where randomness is desired, tend toward a D20 roll. Infrequent checks, or where too much randomness can be frustrating, use the 2d10 method.

For combat, a D20 provides a nice flat chance of getting a 1 to 20, which results in a greater degree of randomness in combat. This is appropriate, as combat rolls occur frequently during a typical encounter, and the player has both Armour Factor and Health Points that act as a buffer before unrecoverable failure (death, usually).

On the other hand, Stealth checks use 2d10 which are rolled much less frequently per 'Stealth' encounter, and a failure tends to be immediate - there's no equivalent of Health Points to take the brunt of a few failed rolls. The same applies to Evasion, where the penalty for missing the roll can be far more severe than a bad combat result.

You can use 2d10 for combat if required, but note it will make combat last longer between equal foes, and small differences in skill will be amplified. To illustrate:

Let us assume 2 basic humans, Attack 11 Defence 5, squaring off for a fight.

With a 1D20, they each have a 30% chance of scoring a hit on one another per combat round.
With a 2D10, they each have a 15% chance of scoring a hit on one another per combat round.

Furthermore lets assume one of the humans is a bit slow, and has an attack of 9 instead of 11.

With a 1D20, Attack 9 human has a 20% chance of scoring a hit.
With a 2D10, Attack 9 human has a mere 6% chance of scoring a hit (hardly more than the chance of a critical in the usual rules).

On the flipside, lets assume one of the humans is a high ranking character instead, with an attack of 20.

With a 1D20, Attack 20 human has a 70% chance of scoring a hit.
With a 2D10, Attack 20 human has a 79% chance of scoring a hit.

Basically, when using 2d10, every point greater or lower than a target value of 11 logarithmically reduces or increases the chance to hit. Since the standard difference between attack and defence is 6, there's already a pretty heavy bias toward a very low chance of success.

The combat for DW seems to have been balanced around the premise that a normal being should hit an equivalent opponent about 30% of the time in a combat. To keep a similar ratio when moving to 2D10, you would need to add 1 point to the Attack score and deduct 1 point from the Defence score of all creatures and professions listed in the rulebooks - this would change the standard difference between attack and defence to 8, which give a 28% chance to hit. Pretty close to the regular 30%. Note this already happens to be the standard difference between Stealth & Perception, which uses 2D10 for checks.

 

[Jiminy]

That's a very good description of the relative merits of DW dice mechanics - I think it deserves to be on the Magnum Opus DW site!