shamans

[sdavies2720]

Or not. Since the GM controls that.

Sure. It's your game. I'm just pointing out a resource to anyone interested.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Here's the situation in my game. The shaman has a 64% Spirit Binding skill, which can be boosted up to 71% by the party sorceror's Enhance POW (which I'm ruling is +1 per 10% not +2 because I think that's OTT). If she keeps a spirit in in its fetish, she has to roll 71 or less to let it out and use it. That's not all that great, it means that more or less 1 in 3 times, she loses the spirit (less if buffed, more if not). I'm recommending that she keeps them out of the bindings most of the time because of this.

With that skill, she has a good chance of beating up a Magnitude 1 spirit, but a poor chance of winning against Magintude 2.

Should I allow the shaman to command her spirits to buff another character, rather than having to initiate that character as a lay member of the practice and then only have a base 40% (buffed) chance of getting it to do its thing?

 

[PhilHibbs]

The stats for elementals in the Spirit Magic section are odd. A 3 cubic meter elemental has a POW of 1d6+18 POW. 5 cubic meters has 1d6+30 POW. In the Creatures chapter, it's 1d6 POW per cubic meter, which is what I am going to use. Are elementals supposed to have a higher POW when encountered on the spirit plane?

*Update*: Hm, seems all spirits are like that, 1d6 plus a large static plus based on magnitude. Is that deliberate? Seems odd to me. What's the rationale?

 

[cerebro]

Here's the situation in my game. The shaman has a 64% Spirit Binding skill, which can be boosted up to 71% by the party sorceror's Enhance POW (which I'm ruling is +1 per 10% not +2 because I think that's OTT). If she keeps a spirit in in its fetish, she has to roll 71 or less to let it out and use it. That's not all that great, it means that more or less 1 in 3 times, she loses the spirit (less if buffed, more if not). I'm recommending that she keeps them out of the bindings most of the time because of this.

I don't think thats a problem. Spirits are like buffing "spells" for a shaman. So she has the same chance of missing everyone has when casting.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

*Update*: Hm, seems all spirits are like that, 1d6 plus a large static plus based on magnitude. Is that deliberate? Seems odd to me. What's the rationale?

It ensures a consistent scaling relationship between the level/intensity/strength of the spirit and its POW value.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

I don't think thats a problem. Spirits are like buffing "spells" for a shaman. So she has the same chance of missing everyone has when casting.

Precisely.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

That's not all that great, it means that more or less 1 in 3 times, she loses the spirit (less if buffed, more if not).

If she hasn't fumbled her roll or gone out of her way to deliberate break the fetish, why is she losing the spirit?

 

[PhilHibbs]

That's not all that great, it means that more or less 1 in 3 times, she loses the spirit (less if buffed, more if not).

If she hasn't fumbled her roll or gone out of her way to deliberate break the fetish, why is she losing the spirit?

As I understand it, a failed roll means the spirit is released and uncontrolled, and may be hostile.

I don't think thats a problem. Spirits are like buffing "spells" for a shaman. So she has the same chance of missing everyone has when casting.

Precisely.

A failed spell cast can be re-attempted 1 or 2 CAs later, but a failed spirit release roll loses the spirit until the shaman can re-acquire a replacement.

*Update*: Oops I'm wrong, you only lose it on a fumble, ok. So, a shaman finds and beats up an Earth Elemental, binds it, releases it, and commands it successfully with a simple test of Spirit Binding skill. "Get in side me", she says, and then the elemental is invested within her and she can move through rock at will. Correct? For as long as she wants, until someone spots the spiritual aura and Banishes it?

 

[Mongoose Pete]

"Get in side me", she says, and then the elemental is invested within her and she can move through rock at will. Correct? For as long as she wants, until someone spots the spiritual aura and Banishes it?

Yes in principle, but take the time to read Gnomes again. She'll only be able to travel through earth, not solid rock. Also she can't breathe underground, so her trips will need to be short jaunts.

 

[PhilHibbs]

"Get in side me", she says, and then the elemental is invested within her and she can move through rock at will. Correct? For as long as she wants, until someone spots the spiritual aura and Banishes it?

Yes in principle, but take the time to read Gnomes again. She'll only be able to travel through earth, not solid rock. Also she can't breathe underground, so her trips will need to be short jaunts.

Ok. Thanks. (Minor quibble - "For example, a shaman could bind a salamander and use it to give himself a burning touch, a gnome to move himself through earth and rock, an undine to survive underwater and swim fast and so on." I think the Creatures chapter is probably correct, that they can't move through rock.)

It seems to me, and my shaman player, that elementals are massively more useful than any other kind of spirit - +1 AP or +1 move or +1 Initiative is pretty small, and Intensity 2 is a dangerous proposition to beat up as a starting character will only have a 50-50 chance of winning, Intensity 3 is way out of any starting character's league. Only two of the example spirits are Intensity 1, so the examples are of very little use for shaman character creation. I don't know if I'm being generous by allowing an Intensity 1 internalised 2 cubic meter Air Elemental to grant flight.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Ok. Thanks. (Minor quibble - "For example, a shaman could bind a salamander and use it to give himself a burning touch, a gnome to move himself through earth and rock...

Ah, noted.

It seems to me, and my shaman player, that elementals are massively more useful than any other kind of spirit

Yes at lower volumes, but that assumes your shamanic cult / geographic region / game setting has access to these.

Intensity 2 is a dangerous proposition to beat up as a starting character will only have a 50-50 chance of winning, Intensity 3 is way out of any starting character's league.

First off, the starting character is still a shaman and could therefore potentially draw upon the MPs of their Fetch, making them far more resilient in Spirit Combat.

Secondly take another look at p140. You don't necessarily need to beat up spirits in order to bind or ally them. Spirit availability is limited only by the GMs imagination and desire. Ultimately, game balance is provided by upper limit set by the Binding skill - spirits of up to 24 POW in your PC's case.

Shamans don't need to be yobbos, trawling round the Spirit Plane kicking hell out of any spirit unfortunate enough to cross their path. Instead we've given shamans the opportunity to weave themselves into their culture/environment, forming relationships and pacts with spirit beings, so that in turn it provides a spur for roleplaying.

Only two of the example spirits are Intensity 1, so the examples are of very little use for shaman character creation. I don't know if I'm being generous by allowing an Intensity 1 internalised 2 cubic meter Air Elemental to grant flight.

They are examples, so that GMs can follow the guidelines and make their own. It is meant to inspire the formation of spirits suitable for the setting in which you play in.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Intensity 2 is a dangerous proposition to beat up as a starting character will only have a 50-50 chance of winning, Intensity 3 is way out of any starting character's league.

First off, the starting character is still a shaman and could therefore potentially draw upon the MPs of their Fetch, making them far more resilient in Spirit Combat.

As I understood it, the shaman couldn't do this whilst he is on the Spirit Plane and his fetch is guarding his body.

Secondly take another look at p140. You don't necessarily need to beat up spirits in order to bind or ally them.

For a one-off favour, they can be bargained with, but to keep them around indefinitely needs them to be bound, which requires Spirit Combat, as I read the rules.

Shamans don't need to be yobbos, trawling round the Spirit Plane kicking hell out of any spirit unfortunate enough to cross their path. Instead we've given shamans the opportunity to weave themselves into their culture/environment, forming relationships and pacts with spirit beings, so that in turn it provides a spur for roleplaying.

True. As my game is centred around Jrustela, though, that's tricky so my player's shaman is a member of a tradition that is being manipulated for maximum personal gain by the Order of Greater Glorification.

I think we've worked out the wrinkles in our understanding of the rules. Thanks a lot for your assistance, I hope I didn't come over as being overly negative.

 

[PhilHibbs]

My shaman player (who is reading this forum these days, hello Chris!) is still pretty paranoid about how dangerous his spirits are, and how hard they are to acquire. He's still thinking that Magnitude 1 is all he can safely acquire

We're thinking that getting, say, a Magnitude 1 Peyote/Hazia Nature Spirit giving +10 to Spirit Binding might be useful, and that he can safely take on Magnitude 2 spirits when back at home with cult support.

Ancestor Spirits are nice but hard to make any use of as binding them might be considered a breach of cult rules, but I think it's do-able under the right circumstances. I assume that there are Magnitude 1 Ancestors but there are no examples thereof, and that "persuading" them to come along on an adventure might be fun for them. Is binding an ancestor into a fetish always a hostile act, or should it be ok to consider it just a robust form of persuasion?

 

[cerebro]

How can a shaman use a sickness and disease spirit?.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

First off, the starting character is still a shaman and could therefore potentially draw upon the MPs of their Fetch, making them far more resilient in Spirit Combat.

As I understood it, the shaman couldn't do this whilst he is on the Spirit Plane and his fetch is guarding his body.

In answer to your previous enquiry about the subject, I said that I'd originally intended for the MP transfer to be localised - however you can play it any way you wanted. I.e. as a GM I personally wouldn't want the shaman drawing on his fetch if he was spirit walking 70km away, but if he were in the same general place as his fetch then its fine.

The MP transfer rules are open to being finessed however the GM wants, since the only rule is that it can be done.

It doesn't matter if the shaman is on the Spirit Plane or not. In fact there is no reason a fetch even has to guard the Shaman's body when he's spirit walking; it can be left unoccupied and unguarded if the Shaman wants.

Secondly take another look at p140. You don't necessarily need to beat up spirits in order to bind or ally them.

For a one-off favour, they can be bargained with, but to keep them around indefinitely needs them to be bound, which requires Spirit Combat, as I read the rules.

A 'favour' could be 'help me complete my quest to travel to and conquer the summit of Kero Fin'. That might take a while if the shaman is starting in Prax for example, so why wouldn't the spirit allow itself to be bound if it trusts the shaman or the previous conduct of his spirit tradition/cult?

If you want to allow it then it is no problem to allow ongoing alliances with friendly spirits who allow themselves to be bound, or grant lesser spirits as permanent gifts. For example contacting King Tiger (some frighteningly powerful spirit ruling over all felines) may grant a loyal shaman permission to bind an Intensity 3 tiger spirit as a sign of their allegiance. It doesn't matter whether the shaman could have beaten it in Spirit Combat, as long as he has the skill to command the gifted spirit.

Ultimately, the availability of all cults and spells is controlled by GM fiat. Spirit Magic is no different.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

How can a shaman use a sickness and disease spirit?.

Sickness and Curse spirits are one-use since they need to possess an opponent to work. Spirit Combat however, requires the spirit to be on the spirit plane.

So a shaman needs to either summon it directly to the victim (say in a ritual where the target was helpless) or if tied to a fetish, break the object into which the spirit was bound (sundering the link which keeps it on the physical plane).

Either way the shaman has one shot at commanding the sickness/curse spirit. If this fails it is free to act independently.

This makes handling such entities rather dangerous. However certain cults/traditions may have favourable relationships with these nasty spirits, such as broo shaman of Malia in Glorantha, providing some degree of protection against their hostility.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Ultimately, the availability of all cults and spells is controlled by GM fiat. Spirit Magic is no different.

Well, that's a specific problem that I'm dealing with at the moment, the player is refusing to accept my rulings, saying that I am just changing the game to help his character and that that is tantamount to cheating. Getting the opinion of the game's designer, I though, might help but it doesn't seem to be as the printed rules still say what they say. But as I say, that's my problem. Well, it should his problem, really, but it's dragging the whole game down.

 

[Vagni]

Ultimately, the availability of all cults and spells is controlled by GM fiat. Spirit Magic is no different.

Well, that's a specific problem that I'm dealing with at the moment, the player is refusing to accept my rulings, saying that I am just changing the game to help his character and that that is tantamount to cheating. Getting the opinion of the game's designer, I though, might help but it doesn't seem to be as the printed rules still say what they say. But as I say, that's my problem. Well, it should his problem, really, but it's dragging the whole game down.

Perhaps one solution is to define her specific spirit cults Higher Magic, perhaps with reference the cults runes. This can be done by defining a set of spirits that are considered cult allies. The Kolati cult in Cults of Glorantha is a very good example.

I would suggest defining a couple of elementals and nature spirits that are considered allied spirits. These could begin at Intensity 1 for worshippers and increase an Intensity for each cult rank, thus Intensity 2 for your players shaman. These spirits would not require spirit combat or Influence rolls to use (within reason), as they are already cult allies.

Maybe allow one very powerful ancestor spirit for High Shamans to use as well.

You could then define other spirits that are at least neutral to the shamans tradition, maybe healing and guardian spirits and perhaps a few neutral nature spirits. These spirits require opposed Influence/Resilience tests to convince to help the shaman and will probably require some task or sacrifice or some temporary compulsion.

Then there are the enemy spirits; sickness, bane and curse spirits would all be hostile and require spirit combat to bind or use in any way. Nature spirits that are natural enemies of the cult nature spirits would also be hostile (e.g. if you cult had snake spirits as part of its higher magic then a mongoose spirit would not be very friendly).

Using this template allows a shaman safe access to a few higher Intensity spirits as defined by her cult. Other spirits are still available but require some form of sacrifice or cost.


Another idea I use when bartering for aid from a spirit is the idea of the spirit demanding a temporary compulsion from the shaman in payment. Thus a spirit may ask that the shaman refrain from eating meat for a week, remain silent for a whole day once a week for a season, only sleep outside for 3 days, not speak or aid sorcerers for half a season, not bathe for two seasons etc. These can be fun to role-play and may even have unforeseen effects in the near future but don't involve side quests or additional out of play skill rolls.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Vagni, you've raised an interesting point on the wiki article. Should a Follower of a spirit cult have their own Spirit Binding skill in order to access spirits in fetishes that their shaman has given to them? Or, as with Spirit Combat, could they use their Persistence?

 

[Simulacrum]

It looks as if in RAW you must have spirit binding - with the further problem of the cap on the size of spirit (POW) you can control based on 3xcrit SB skill.

In my own setting I have had to dispense with these limitations - spirits are a key gift (and inducement) to followers, but SB and SW are restricted skills. A cult lore skill is substituted which is then used to activate the spirit's power, and the cap is dispensed with for the purpose of spirits provided by the cult. The cap and use of SB is still there for those who actually source the spirits, of course.