Shamanism for fun and Prophet

[Deleriad]

Here's the exact quote from S&P 89 (page 19)

When the spirit magician releases an elemental spirit from a fetish it does not need any source material but while uncontrolled it will gravitate to the nearest source of its element within range of the binding object. By itself it is just a spirit and has no significant effect on the mundane plane.

I read that to mean that an air elemental spirit will instantly for a body from the air, and an earth elemental spirit which is released at ground level forms a body from the earth. Maybe it takes a CA to do this, so the shaman will always have a second attempt to control it. This inherent second chance with elementals hadn't occurred to me when I was discussing the situation with my player.

It means exactly what it says. An elemental spirit cannot form a body; that is the crucial difference between how a shaman summons an elemental spirit that he can embody and how a priest summons an elemental into a body of material.

An uncontrolled elemental spirit has, as it says, "no significant effect on the mundane plane."

So basically your shaman has as many chances as he wants. This is exactly what happens with a nature spirit in the example.

 

[PhilHibbs]

It means exactly what it says. An elemental spirit cannot form a body; that is the crucial difference between how a shaman summons an elemental spirit that he can embody and how a priest summons an elemental into a body of material.

An uncontrolled elemental spirit has, as it says, "no significant effect on the mundane plane."

So basically your shaman has as many chances as he wants. This is exactly what happens with a nature spirit in the example.

So a shaman can't bind an elemental into a fetish and get it to come out and form a body? Or, can it only form a body if commanded to do so and cannot do so on its own without being commanded to?

 

[Deleriad]

So a shaman can't bind an elemental into a fetish and get it to come out and form a body? Or, can it only form a body if commanded to do so and cannot do so on its own without being commanded to?

Exactly. All a bound elemental spirit can do is to be embodied by a shaman who then becomes the elemental. Same as a beetle spirit that provides +1 AP.

Naturally you can rule that in your games that some elemental spirits might be able to form bodies but the default as presented in the core rules and expanded in S&P is that elemental spirits are embodied by the shaman.

On a tangent. What if you wanted a shaman to control the winds? One answer would be to bind a wind nature spirit which when bound and commanded gives the shaman the ability to dominate winds. In that case I would use the Intensity of the spirit as a guide to how many steps up and down the wind strength table it can move the wind strength. Alternately, a shaman could spirit walk and ask the local wind spirits to blow more strongly in return for a favour. Finally, a shaman might be able to find an intelligent elemental ally who when summoned could inhabit a prepared body of element. That's what I mean about the system not being free-form but being flexible enough that once the PCs start to explore what they can do they will, hopefully, find all sorts of creative uses.

 

[PhilHibbs]

So a shaman can't bind an elemental into a fetish and get it to come out and form a body? Or, can it only form a body if commanded to do so and cannot do so on its own without being commanded to?

Exactly. All a bound elemental spirit can do is to be embodied by a shaman who then becomes the elemental.

That's ridiculous, shamans have always been able to use elementals. What's the point in having a salamander if it can't set fire to things? What's the point in having a gnome if it can't swallow people or knock down walls? Shades that can't Fearshock?

Oh, are all these effects supposed to be achieved by the shaman integrating the elemental spirit and using the ability herself? They don't exactly become the elemental, though, do they? They just gain its abilities, such as burrowing or flying, I'd have said a shaman might have an elemental that is big enough to allow her to fly, but couldn't lift another person as well. With a bound elemental, that she releases and commands to attack someone, she could do that in AHRQ.

On a tangent. What if you wanted a shaman to control the winds? One answer would be to bind a wind nature spirit which when bound and commanded gives the shaman the ability to dominate winds.

That's not a tangent at all. You want to control the winds, you get a sylph. They ARE the wind spirits. You bind it, release it, command it, it forms a body, and makes the air move.

 

[Deleriad]

Oh, are all these effects supposed to be achieved by the shaman integrating the elemental spirit and using the ability herself?

Yes. Exactly.

A shaman is capable of embodying an elemental spirit, which means that shaman’s body itself becomes the elemental.

They don't exactly become the elemental, though, do they?

Yes they do. To be precise, in the same way that a fire can embody an elemental, a shaman's body embodies the elemental spirit.

A spirit magician embodying a sylph transforms into a vortex of buffeting winds while a one embodying a gnome will sink into the ground as if they were some type of earthen whirlpool.

As it says:

A spirit magician embodying an elemental spirit essentially becomes an elemental of size based on the spirit’s Intensity as outlined on the table on the next page.

 

[PhilHibbs]

As it says:

A spirit magician embodying an elemental spirit essentially becomes an elemental of size based on the spirit’s Intensity as outlined on the table on the next page.

Hm, that's cool, but I'm not sure if it's... right, if you know what I mean. It's a big change. I'm cool with a new edition of RQ having new game mechanics for doing stuff, but this is changing the world, not just the game system. It's even a big change from the core RQ2 rules - as writ, a shaman can embody a Sylph all day long and can use it to fly. Under the S&P rules, though, they become a sylph which isn't always convenient.

 

[Deleriad]

Under the S&P rules, though, they become a sylph which isn't always convenient.

According to Pete, that's how the RQ rules were meant to be read though it's not clear from the book. When I was playtesting RQII this very issue came up. One of the players generated a spirit magician who had a salamander spirit. I asked how to judge this and was told that the spirit was always on and that this was *supposed to be a problem.*

While writing S&P this was thrashed out again with Pete. Part of the reason for the article was that book had to cover a lot of new information with minimal word count. Unless something has gone wrong there should be no substantive changes from RQII core.

Naturally anyone who wants to play with Shamans controlling elementals the same way priests do, can. Alternatively if it is important to allow a shaman to fly without turning into a sylph then they should bind a nature spirit which gives them the trait "flying." That could be a bird spirit, a wind spirit, a cloud spirit. Heck it could even be a moon spirit that lets them fly on moon beams.

Not all wind spirits are sylphs.

 

[Vagni]

As it says:

A spirit magician embodying an elemental spirit essentially becomes an elemental of size based on the spirit’s Intensity as outlined on the table on the next page.

Hm, that's cool, but I'm not sure if it's... right, if you know what I mean. It's a big change. I'm cool with a new edition of RQ having new game mechanics for doing stuff, but this is changing the world, not just the game system. It's even a big change from the core RQ2 rules - as writ, a shaman can embody a Sylph all day long and can use it to fly. Under the S&P rules, though, they become a sylph which isn't always convenient.

I guess it depends on how you present it.

I see a Kolati shaman embodying a sylph to fly as being almost hidden by buffeting winds and flying debris as he shoots through the air. As he finally comes to land and talk to the players the winds drop to a strong, localised breeze about him, he seems distant and somewhat indistinct and he speaks with a rushing, swirling voice as his hair and robes billow about him... he speaks a word as he holds open a bag and the breeze drops suddenly as the spirit leaves his body... it's just how you perceive and present the change I guess.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Not all wind spirits are sylphs.

It's never occurred to me that there would be any other kind of wind spirit, and I don't really see the need for it. There might be different kinds of sylph - breeze, squall, whirlwind, etc., and variations across the world as well as sylphs in the service of different gods or great spirits, but I can't imagine what a non-sylph air spirit would be or why you would want to call it anything other than an air elemental. There might be spirits that use elementals to control the winds, a local spirit lord of the winds, but that's getting into spiritual politics, those aren't the sort of thing that you would bind unless you are really powerful.

*Edit* Basically, if you want to control an element, use an elemental. Simple.

 

[Vagni]

Even a small sylph is pretty impressive with its visual effects, there must be a thousand smaller spirits than a sylph to control the tiny breezes and moving air all day.

The same goes for a fire, you start a fire on the mundane plane and you birth a fire spirit on the spirit plane. It might only be a candle flame but it has a spirit.

Every rock, plant, eddy in a stream, breeze, concept and emotion probably has its spiritual equivalent somehow, no matter how small that is.

Wind spirits and sylphs are like small animals are to men in my mind.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Even a small sylph is pretty impressive with its visual effects, there must be a thousand smaller spirits than a sylph to control the tiny breezes and moving air all day.

Sure, I imagine you get sylphs that are smaller than 1 cubic meter, but there's not much point in giving them game stats.

 

[Deleriad]

I guess the simplest thing to say is that the *rules* are agnostic about the world. In Hibbsworld, all air spirits are defined in game terms as sylphs.

In other worlds there is an ecology of wind spirits that is as rich and diverse as plants, birds and mammals. These nature wind spirits could be bound and treated just like other nature spirits.

So wind spirits might be able to augment APs (buffeting wind that deflects blows) increase Move, provide Combat Manoeuvres (bash and trip are obvious as is blinding), provide traits (flying, super hearing), dominate winds and so on. You could also have wind-based guardian spirits, healing spirits. Might even have an ancestor that is a particular wind. All that plus sylphs.

It's not really the job of the rules to determine the ecology of a given setting so if you want nothing but sylphs in the air, then that's the way it is.

 

[PhilHibbs]

In Hibbsworld, all air spirits are defined in game terms as sylphs.
In other worlds there is an ecology of wind spirits that is as rich and diverse as plants, birds and mammals. These nature wind spirits could be bound and treated just like other nature spirits.

Air is an element, which is to say, it is simple. It is primal. It's an ingredient. The very word "element" means that. So to have a rich and diverse ecosystem within an element is a contradiction in terms. Hibbsworld doesn't make obvious linguistic and etymological blunders. :wink:

 

[EricJ]

In fantasy terms, Air, Water, Earth, and Fire may be Elements. In Glorantha you get Light and Darkness too. But that doesn't mean everything airy is 'Air'. Consider that Glorantha has both Undines and River spirits. The Zola Fel is worshipped as a great spirit, and she has her servitor spirits. A worshipper might bind an eddy spirit, a wave spirit, or even a tide spirit.

Similarly, a coastal town might have regular sea breezes, and these might be represented by spirits. So, a shaman might pact with or bind "Breeze of Evening", rank 2 wind spirit, with the power to reduce the effective temperature 20 degrees Celsius when invoked. This spirit will be easier to handle than a rank 2 Sylph, as it has only a specific power.

 

[jarulf]

I just wanted to say I've enjoyed the two articles, as well as this thread a lot. I'm really getting to like Spirit Magic. It is scary, flexible and very, very cool.

Thanks guys.

 

[PhilHibbs]

In fantasy terms, Air, Water, Earth, and Fire may be Elements. In Glorantha you get Light and Darkness too.

Light is a minor rune, an aspect of the Fire Rune.
*Update* Of course, this is a heavily God-learnerized view of Glorantha. But the God Learners were right, after all, they were just a little careless. Chernobyl didn't mean that nuclear physics is incorrect.

 

[Vagni]

I just wanted to say I've enjoyed the two articles, as well as this thread a lot. I'm really getting to like Spirit Magic. It is scary, flexible and very, very cool.

Thanks guys.

Thank you, the feedback is very much appreciated and it's been a lot of fun writing them with Bruce and Nick as well.

Actually a lot of the ideas for the articles originated on the forum, which just goes to show what a great resources this is for us all.

I have spotted an omission I made in the second part in the form of magic spirits, so I will post their details on here at some point. Maybe that's a good excuse for another spirit bestiary... :wink:

 

[Vagni]

I managed to cut magic spirits from the article by accident somehow, here they are for those who may want some information on them.

Magic Spirit

Skills: Common Magic (POWx5%), Persistence (POWx5%)

Magic spirits are a spiritual manifestation of the Magic Rune. Magic spirits will know a number of Common Magic spells up to a maximum of their POW, with a maximum magnitude for each spell equivalent to their Intensity. The spells it knows are often related or follow a theme in some way. It will lend its POW as Magic Points and its Common Magic skill can be used in place of the mortals when casting Common Magic. Its Persistence can be used in place of the mortals for resisting spells that require Persistence. Once removed from the spirit plane magic spirits are unable to regain magic points just exactly as other spirits and so must be bargained with for assistance or recharged somehow once bound.

Examples:

Magic Spirit 1, Intensity 1, POW 10. Skills: Common Magic 50%, Persistence 50%. Knows the following spells: Becalm, Light, Cauterise, Endurance, Repair

Magic Spirit 2, Intensity 2, POW 12. Skills: Common Magic 60%, Persistence 60%. Knows the following spells: Fireblade, Ignite, Demoralise, Bladesharp 2, Pierce 2, Protection 2

Magic Spirit 3, Intensity 3, POW 16. Skills: Common Magic 80%, Persistence 80%. Knows the following spells: Clear Path, Mobility 2, Coordination 2, Bandit's Cloak 3, Beast Call 3, Repair 3

 

[PhilHibbs]

It will lend its POW as Magic Points and its Common Magic skill can be used in place of the mortals when casting Common Magic. Its Persistence can be used in place of the mortals for resisting spells that require Persistence.

That seems amazingly powerful compared to other spirits - mostly you get 1 or 2 MPs from a spirit, OR an extra spell resistance roll, OR a +10 or +20 to a skill, but its full POW in MPs, AND its Common Magic, AND a Persistence skill? That's 10x better than any spirit in the MRQ2 rules!

 

[Vagni]

It will lend its POW as Magic Points and its Common Magic skill can be used in place of the mortals when casting Common Magic. Its Persistence can be used in place of the mortals for resisting spells that require Persistence.

That seems amazingly powerful compared to other spirits - mostly you get 1 or 2 MPs from a spirit, OR an extra spell resistance roll, OR a +10 or +20 to a skill, but its full POW in MPs, AND its Common Magic, AND a Persistence skill? That's 10x better than any spirit in the MRQ2 rules!

They already are in the RQ2 rules, in CoG for the Pamalt cult.

Bear in mind they also have no way of restoring lost MP's on the mundane plane, so they are of limited use and are hardly likely to be of any help to anyone who has attacked them in spirit combat anyway, due to being hostile and having potentially lost MP's defending themselves. Don't forget they can cast those spells on anyone attacking them as well.

For those lucky enough to count them as allies they must be called forth which takes time for them to arrive so they are hardly much use as a defensive spirit either. In this regard they are a bit like healing spirits, effectively useless unless they agree to help you - at a cost of course.

Magic spirits are really meant as allied spirits for shamanistic traditions, not as readily available and bindable spirits. Each cult may be lucky enough to have an Intensity 1 or 2 magic spirit as an ally, but that's it.

Seeking out magic spirits at random on the spirit plane is likely to waste a lot of time and effort as you never know what spells they will have.

Also the maximum number of spells is their POW, so you can reduce this if you prefer for your world.