Shamanism for fun and Prophet

This highlights another problem I have with the Spirit Magic rules. It is very easy to jump to mistaken conclusions.

Spells are nice and easy, they have a few keywords (e.g. Autonomous, Resilience, etc.) and a description of what it does, and there are standard things that apply equally to all spells, e.g. duration, range, combine, magnitude etc. Spirits, however, are a different bag. There are at least five very different kinds of spirits (Nature, Elemental, Guardian, Magic, and Bane/Disease/Passion which I shall call Attack spirits) which all behave not only differently from each other, but differently depending on the context that they are in - elementals can't form a body if they are bound to a fetish, for instance. Attack spirits... can they be released from a fetish and attack someone? They are bound to the mundane plane, so can they Discorporate someone and... then the target is on the Spirit Plane, so now does the Attack spirit have to leave the mundane plane and go to the Spirit Plane to attack the victim? I don't know! Help! This is all too confusing. It used to be nice and simple. A shaman keeps a bunch of spirits with her Fetch sitting on them, lets them out, and they do their thing. Fear spirits attack in Spirit Combat, Sylphs form a body and chuck people around, and POW Spirits just feed her MPs (and regenerate them during downtime). There's a lot to like about the new system, but it's also added a lot of confusing complications.
 
PhilHibbs said:
This highlights another problem I have with the Spirit Magic rules. It is very easy to jump to mistaken conclusions. ...

... There's a lot to like about the new system, but it's also added a lot of confusing complications.
We are moving to a much more complex, and richer, system. I believe that the underlying structure for this new system is sound, but clearly the structure has not (yet) been clearly communicated. I'm guessing that it will happen over time -- as individuals post their interpretations and implementations, the structure will begin to get clearer and easier to specify.

My 2 coppers.

Steve
 
I thought a sort of glossary of some of the traits, abilities and powers of some of the spirit world might prove useful. The ones underlined are specifically from the Core rules, any others are either generic terms or of my own invention. The list is a bit ad hoc at present but I will add to it and tidy it up when I get time.

Some of these terms could be used by GM's to help define spirits with handy keywords, a bit like spell descriptions.

Covenant – spirit will only assist if a bargain or agreement is struck, if treated with hostility it will flee or attack back. Healing and birthing spirits are a good example, they are useless if attacked and bound and will only heal or assist those who offer them some form of service or agreement. Opposed tests of the spirit magicians Influence versus the spirits Persistence are the most simple game mechanic to reflect this. Covenants are like a trade, both parties must be happy to proceed with them, although they can be influenced by the other in their decision.

Contract – a spirit that has been defeated or bound may be forced to agree a contract of one service or action before it is released. This service can be left very vague or minutely defined as desired. The spirit will return to perform the contract to the best of its ability when summoned by its true name and then depart back to the spirit world.

Hostile – spirit is essentially hostile and aggressive to the spirit magician and his tradition or cult. Hostile spirits are rarely used by spirit magicians.

Neutral – spirit is largely disinterested in cult allegiances or spirit traditions. Such spirits can often be bargained with or may be defeated and bound or forced to service – see Contracts.

Friendly – friendly spirits are often defined by a spirit tradition as part of their higher magic and can vary greatly from one spirit cult to another. They will always have a positive attitude to friendly cultists when first encountered. They are often very open to the idea of forming a covenant, see above.

Allied spirit – a spirit that has either agreed to a mutual alliance with an individual spirit magician and will assist him in any way it can, or a spirit allied to a specific spirit cult that will assist cult members of the correct cult rank.

Manifestation (Physical) – a spirit that has some actual physical manifestation when on the mundane plane, such as a wind spirit gently blowing air around or a mist spirit manifesting with a low ground mist. Such manifestations will be able to interact, within limits, with the physical world.

Manifestation (Spiritual) – a spirit that has some spiritual manifestation when on the mundane plane, such as a guardian spirit appearing as a ghostly badger. Such forms may not interact physically with the material world and are usually only visible to those with some Spirit Walking skill or other magical vision.

Discorporation – a spirit that can discorporate a mortals soul onto the spirit plane and potentially initiate spirit combat. Spirits with this ability will always have the Discorporation skill. Spirits with discorporation are not always out to mindlessly tear mortal souls apart, they may merely use the ability to defend themselves or force a mortals soul into performing some service.

Persistent – a spirit that's effects last as long as it is let out from its fetish or is released on the mundane world. Such spirits are vulnerable to spells such as the Banish, Spirit Block, or even blasting them with some form of magical damage. Once dismissed or destroyed, the spirit is gone for good until a new replacement can be summoned. Most spirits possess this trait.

Transient – a spirit who's effect last a specific time period or until a condition is met. The spirit will appear, do its best to perform the task and then return to the spirit world immediately afterwards – see Covenant and Contracts.

Dominant Possession - occurs when the possessing entity literally takes complete control of the possessed body. The victim is fully aware that its body has been taken over but is absolutely helpless, unable to take any action at all. The possessor does not have access to any of the memories, skills or magic of the possessed but substitutes its own instead.

Covert Possession - is when the spirit hides in the body of the possessed, riding it like a hitch-hiker. The victim retains complete control over his body and remains completely unaware of his possession, unless the spirit chooses to inform him of its presence.

Corporeal - A soul or spirit which inhabits a physical body or item is defined as being corporeal. Corporeal souls or spirits are unable to enter the spirit world unless they abandon their physical form or are drawn to the spirit world by being discorporated.

Semi-Corporeal – a state of being where a spirit has some limited physical form but is still somehow linked to the spirit world directly. Some haunts such as ghost and wraiths have this strange half-and-half state as they are often linked to a physical object on the material plane.

Material Plane – the purely physical world inhabited my man, also sometimes also called the mundane plane or material world.

Spirit Plane – the purely spiritual world, the realm of spirits and souls. Linked closely and parallel to the physical material plane but always separated. Can sometimes be seen overlapping the material plane with abilities such as Soul Sight or glimpsed briefly at magical or holy times.

Boost Attribute – a spirit that quite literally boosts some attribute when internalised by the spirit magician (AP, Damage Modifier, HP, Movement, MP or SR). Many nature spirits are a good example of 'boosting' spirits.

Manifest Trait - a spirit that quite literally grants the use of some trait or ability when internalised by the spirit magician. Many nature spirits are a good example of Trait granting spirits. They can be easily defined as Manifest Trait (Fly), Manifest Trait (Wall Walking), Manifest Trait (Night Vision) etc.

Dominate Species – a spirit that allows the domination and control of certain creatures, usually a number of creatures equal to their intensity.

Increase a Skill - a spirit that quite literally boosts a skill when internalised by the spirit magician. This is usually a boost of +10% per intensity.

Grant Combat Manoeuvre - a spirit that allows a certain combat manoeuvre when internalised by the spirit magician. This is in addition to any manoeuvres generated during combat.

**added 8-3-11**

Haunt – a general term for various kinds of souls trapped in some form between the spirit world and the mortal plane. Ghosts and wraiths are both examples of such creatures. Haunts are often semi-corporeal.

Binding – spirit magicians can bind spirits into a fetish to hold them on the mortal plane. A binding holds the spirit safely until the fetish is broken, or the spirit is released. Binding has the advantage of protecting the spirit from attacking spirits or spells but does remove the spirit from any access to the spirit plane and thus it is unable to regain its magic points. Most spirits dislike being bound.

Fetish – a physical object used as the binding to hold a spirit. A fetish can be almost anything from a huge stone monolith to a feather or a tattoo, but they are usually portable objects with some link to the type of spirit being held within them.

Fetch - A fetch is a shaman’s guardian spirit, which is usually related in form or nature to the totem spirit of his tribe or cult. The fetch aids the shaman, protecting and guiding him in the spirit world. It is in every way his spirit brother. Fetches provide many benefits and responsibilities for a shaman.
 
That's an excellent idea! I really like that list, it looks like it clears things up a lot. Some of them are problematic, though, you can't just say a spirit "is hostile", it's going to depend on who you are in most cases. Friendly (Umathi), Hostile (Darkness Cults), that might work.

I think it's important, also, to point out that spirits don't think like "normal" creatures do. The Spirit Plane isn't the Mundane Plane, the rules there are a little more like the Hero Plane. For example, a neutral spirit that has been defeated and bound to service isn't necessarily going to resent it, that's just the way the spirit world works. Unless I'm off-message here with my thinking.
 
PhilHibbs said:
That's an excellent idea! I really like that list, it looks like it clears things up a lot. Some of them are problematic, though, you can't just say a spirit "is hostile", it's going to depend on who you are in most cases. Friendly (Umathi), Hostile (Darkness Cults), that might work.

The hostile, friendly and allied etc. labels are to use for cult write ups really. The attitude of a spirit will vary from cult to cult as you say.

If you look at the two sample cults in the S&P article you'll see where I've used them to give a really quick and simple definition to the types of spirits used by each cult.
 
PhilHibbs said:
For example, a neutral spirit that has been defeated and bound to service isn't necessarily going to resent it, that's just the way the spirit world works.

Personally, how I play it is that being bound is never a good thing. The one exception to this are friendly spirits for traditions: for them there is probably something reasonable about being bound which is linked into the cult's veneration of them.

I reckon any other spirit that gets bound won't be happy. However I also reckon that in most cases it's a moot point because the spirit simply doesn't have the ability to do anything about it and probably lacks the intellect to understand what happened. So if you bind a cactus spirit then once it gets back out of the fetish it might glare at you in a spiky way before fleeing back to the spirit plane. Mostly though it would just flee.

This is all really a matter of personal opinion and setting. Could make for a good plot hook though. Imagine being stalked by an angry cactus spirit that has gained intellect and has never forgiven your grandfather for binding it.
 
I also think Vagni's list is a great idea - and I really enjoyed reading the additional spirit magic rules and info in S&P - I for one would gladly part with cash if that material forms part of the content of a future dead tree RQII Companion.

The very flexibility and broad range of spirit magic lends it significant complexity, and in the end you have to pick and choose what parts work in your world. I ended up devoting a chapter of Age of Treason to Spirit Magic because it operates slightly differently - discorporation is rare (as is the spirit walking skill) and many spirits have the Manifestation trait which allows them to manifest (become visible) in the mundane world when certain circumstances or triggers occur - and that means they can engage a victim in spectral combat in the mundane world too. The spirit world is like an ocean between two continents - one of them the mundane world, the other the Many Hells. Some denizens of these different planes are "amphibious". A very few (including most gods) can move between all three.
 
Deleriad said:
PhilHibbs said:
For example, a neutral spirit that has been defeated and bound to service isn't necessarily going to resent it, that's just the way the spirit world works.

Personally, how I play it is that being bound is never a good thing. The one exception to this are friendly spirits for traditions: for them there is probably something reasonable about being bound which is linked into the cult's veneration of them.

I agree with that too, binding is generally a 'bad thing' for a spirit, although less intelligent spirits would be more at ease with being bound due to their limited intellect.

A nature spirit (with the low fixed INT such spirit creatures have) is just going to flee at the first opportunity just as a released animal would, when its finally released.

A more powerful spirit will weigh up the odds and decide what to do, if it can wreak instant vengeance on its binder then it may well do so, but it would be wary to attack someone who had already bound it once I'd imagine.

A friendly spirit may well be okay about being bound once in a while, after all the shaman can always let them out again when the reason for binding has passed, but it would not be happy about being bound for long periods I suspect. You could always make a house rule that friendly cult spirits can release themselves somehow, maybe after an agreed time period or by expending a few MP's.
 
Vagni said:
Covenant – spirit will only assist if a bargain or agreement is struck, if treated with hostility it will flee or attack back. Healing and birthing spirits are a good example, they are useless if attacked and bound and will only heal or assist those who offer them some form of service or agreement. Opposed tests of the spirit magicians Influence versus the spirits Persistence are the most simple game mechanic to reflect this. Covenants are like a trade, both parties must be happy to proceed with them, although they can be influenced by the other in their decision.

Contract – a spirit that has been defeated or bound may be forced to agree a contract of one service or action before it is released. This service can be left very vague or minutely defined as desired. The spirit will return to perform the contract to the best of its ability when summoned by its true name and then depart back to the spirit world.

Just thought a couple of simple examples of Covenants and Contracts might help.

Example of a Covenant:
Oric the Short successfully locates an intensity 4 healing spirit after undertaking a spirit quest on his clans home territory, the spirit seems quite friendly to his approaches. The spirit can cast the equivalent to a Heal Wound spell at a magnitude of 4.
He attempts to convince the spirit to assist him by making an opposed Influence roll against it's Persistence, the GM allows him a +20% bonus as the spirits initial response was so positive. He succeeds in the roll and he and the spirit agree a Covenant. The spirit will cast Heal Wound for him when he next requests it in return for Oric agreeing to spend 2 days each year helping to heal the sick in his clan. The Covenant is agreeable to both parties and the deal is made.
A few days later Olric enters the spirit world and requests aid from the spirit when a badly injured hunter is brought to his hut and the spirit helps heal him, reminding him of his obligation to the sick of the clan at the same time. Olric promises to spend the very next available day doing just that (he looses a day of his free downtime and notes he now owes the spirit a further day).

Example of a Contract:
Aelfwynn the Fair is worried about a number of recent sacrilegious acts that have taken place in her area at various holy sites. She decides to ward her favourite sacred grove with a curse spirit and goes on a spirit quest to find one, curse spirits are not part of her normal tradition. She manages to locate such a spirit but its attitude to her is hostile and it immediately attacks in spirit combat. Aelfwynn manages to defeat the spirit and forces it into a Contract, she demands that the spirit should attack anyone who profanes the sacred grove and possess them or drive them away. The spirit is down to 1MP and is in no position to argue and so is forced to give Aelfwynn its true name to seal the Contract.
Aelfwynn returns to the mortal plane and the spirit is released on the spirit plane where it recovers its MP's with time.
A few days later Aelfwynn hears of a trollkin found wandering in the woods near her sacred grove, it's body wracked with the curse spirits venom. The Contract has been served and the spirits name fades from her memory.
 
These are great examples, Vagni, and show how Spirit Magic can also work for Demonolgy - at long last replacing Dave Morris' rules from WD 44 or thereabouts (which shows how strong those rules were...)

Vagni said:
The spirit can cast the equivalent to a Heal Wound spell at a magnitude of 4

And this is important because it shows why spirit magic is so powerful and so worth the risk - you get the augments, you get the fetishes/charms, you get the fetch, but you also get access to divine magic through the spirits. And presumably also to Sorcery: for instance, in AH RQiii Glorantha, Intellect Spirits were the shattered remnants of God Learner souls. I intend to have some spirits in my Third Age game that are indeed shattered remnants of God Learner souls, but all they can remember is their cursed sorcerous magic. Thus a shaman might even have possession of a lost sorcery spell, when no sorcerer alive does.
 
Ultor said:
And presumably also to Sorcery: for instance, in AH RQiii Glorantha, Intellect Spirits were the shattered remnants of God Learner souls. I intend to have some spirits in my Third Age game that are indeed shattered remnants of God Learner souls, but all they can remember is their cursed sorcerous magic.
Nonsense! What could possibly go wrong? You speak forked-tongued lies! :wink:
 
PhilHibbs said:
Ultor said:
And presumably also to Sorcery: for instance, in AH RQiii Glorantha, Intellect Spirits were the shattered remnants of God Learner souls. I intend to have some spirits in my Third Age game that are indeed shattered remnants of God Learner souls, but all they can remember is their cursed sorcerous magic.
Nonsense! What could possibly go wrong? You speak forked-tongued lies! :wink:
Thankfully, owing to the blessed revelations of Sedenya and the leadership of Moonson, the cycle of false knowledge has been broken forever. ;)
 
Glad the examples helped. Maybe a couple of examples of a binding might help as well then:

Madoc the shaman decides to unleash a bane spirit on his enemies in the neighbouring clan. He goes on a spirit quest to find a suitable spirit, arming himself with guardian spirits and leaving his fetch and assistant to watch over his body back in his cave. He finds a suitable bane spirit, which is considered hostile to his tradition, and attacks it in spirit combat. His preparations stand him well and he is able to defeat and bind the spirit without too much trouble. He has a fetish prepared in the form of a lump of dried clay and imprisons the bane spirit within this. He returns to the mortal plane and, over the next few days, feeds the spirit with MP's and animal sacrifices in rituals to bring its MP's back up to strength, as spirits cannot regenerate MP whilst on the mortal plane (an idea explored in the S&P article and to be detailed in Blood Magic). A few days later he is ready and sneaks up to his enemies long hall. He takes the clay fetish and loads it in his sling then fires it at the long hall door, where it explodes in a dusty cloud, breaking the binding. Sure enough a couple of his enemies burst out to investigate the noise and Madoc grins evilly as one begins flailing the air and shouting before falling to the ground as his spirit is dragged on to the spirit plane by the angry bane spirit... Madoc slinks away already plotting further revenge in the form of a ghoul spirit to inhabit the corpse of the man who's soul is being destroyed on the spirit plane even now.

Yrsa the witch has chanced upon a useful and unusual spirit whilst exploring on the spirit plane in the form of a wine spirit of Intensity 2. The spirit is able to inflict two levels of drunkenness (see the article in RQ Companion or use fatigue levels instead) on those it covertly possesses and Yrsa sees many uses for such a spirit. She defeats the spirit in spirit combat and forces it to agree to one future service, telling it to seeks her out in 3 days once it has recovered its strength. The spirit is compelled by the contract to visit Yrsa as agreed and she commands it into a binding in the form of a bottle of fine wine... a 'gift' she intends to ensure arrives at the table of Harold the Merchant who recently conned a friend of hers out of a large sum of money. Harold will soon be attending an important trade meeting with the local Earl and other dignatories, and Yrsa has some connections with the serving girls who will serve the wine at the feast...#

Remember that these examples may well contain a certain take or slant on the spirit magic rules that you don't find appropriate to your world (such as the ability to 'recharge' bound spirits with your own MP's), but they are easily adapted to other world views.


...and more random spirit magic musings...

I would say that nature spirits are the most simple to bind, as their MP's don't need to be at full level to utilise their powers and they will simply flee if the shaman fails to control them. This does make them pretty weak to any attacks made on them directly though. The 'attack' spirits such as bane, sickness, curse, pain and fear are a bit trickier to bind in a useful way, but remember that they can be forced into a contract that they are compelled to make if they are defeated by the shaman in spirit combat, thus he can call them forth as part of the contract later and force them to enter a binding once their MP's have replenished. The only drawback now is that technically the contract has now been fulfilled and the binding now contains a very angry spirit he now has no contract with once it is released... if released a failed Spirit Command Test against the spirit mages Spirit Binding skill could prove unfortunate.

Another thing to consider in spirit combat is that a couple of rounds of successes on the shamans part may well weaken the spirit enough to force it to negotiate a contract anyway, spirit combat doesn't have to go on until one of the combatants is reduced to 1MP or is destroyed, just as physical combat doesn't have to be to the death.
 
Vagni said:
Madoc the shaman decides to unleash a bane spirit on his enemies in the neighbouring clan.
He's using chaos spirits? Is he insane? A single failed Spirit Combat roll will result in permanent Magic Point loss!
Vagni said:
Yrsa the witch has chanced upon a useful and unusual spirit whilst exploring on the spirit plane in the form of a wine spirit of Intensity 2. The spirit is able to inflict two levels of drunkenness (see the article in RQ Companion or use fatigue levels instead) on those it covertly possesses and Yrsa sees many uses for such a spirit. She defeats the spirit in spirit combat and forces it to agree to one future service, telling it to seeks her out in 3 days once it has recovered its strength.
This is all very colourful and rich, but it just isn't what most players or referees want. I don't want to run a mini-scenario for just one character so that they can get a one-use ability. I just don't have the time for it, and one-use abilities are virtually useless to players because you never know what that one perfect moment to use it is.
 
Vagni said:
Yrsa the witch has chanced upon a useful and unusual spirit whilst exploring on the spirit plane in the form of a wine spirit of Intensity 2. The spirit is able to inflict two levels of drunkenness (see the article in RQ Companion or use fatigue levels instead) on those it covertly possesses and Yrsa sees many uses for such a spirit. She defeats the spirit in spirit combat and forces it to agree to one future service, telling it to seeks her out in 3 days once it has recovered its strength.

This is all very colourful and rich, but it just isn't what most players or referees want. I don't want to run a mini-scenario for just one character so that they can get a one-use ability. I just don't have the time for it, and one-use abilities are virtually useless to players because you never know what that one perfect moment to use it is.

Then change the example to a 'whatever spirit suits the players needs', I used a wine spirit to just show how spirits don't have to just come from the same backgrounds all the time. It could just as easily be tiger spirit that allows a claw attack or a tribal spirit that grants him +20% to his craft bogies skill.

Also you don't have to make it a mini-scenario. So to rewrite example 2:

Yrsa wants a spirit to trick a nasty merchant. She comes up with the idea of a wine spirit to possess him and make him drunk, GM agrees its a nice idea, dreams up a few game effects and decides its Intensity 2. Yrsa spends 2 Improvement points and buys the bound spirit.

Job done. :wink:

You can play it how you like.
 
PhilHibbs said:
Vagni said:
Madoc the shaman decides to unleash a bane spirit on his enemies in the neighbouring clan.
He's using chaos spirits? Is he insane? A single failed Spirit Combat roll will result in permanent Magic Point loss!

Clearly he has 'issues'. :lol:
The example does say he bolsters his defences first and uses a guardian spirit, but it is a risky business using bane spirits. His next plan involves a ghouls spirit so he must come from a very nasty spirit tradition to even contemplate using such spirits. After all, not all shamans are nice guys - see the cult examples in the article.

Also the bane spirit would only need to be Intensity 1 or 2 to have a half decent effect on his victims (who, not being spirit magicians, only get to resist at half their raw Persistence). So, with a guardian spirit on board, he could bind such a spirit pretty easily with a decent Spirit Walking skill, especially after the guardian spirit had weakened it first.

So Madoc stands back, metaphorically anyway, and watches the two spirits slug it out then steps in and delivers the coup de grâce and binds it. Not much risk really, he can always find another guardian spirit after all.
 
Vagni said:
Also you don't have to make it a mini-scenario. So to rewrite example 2 ... Yrsa spends 2 Improvement points and buys the bound spirit.
OK, next question. Yrsa wants to use the spirit to attack someone. She commands it to come out of the binding object. It is now still on the mundane plane, though, and so can't initiate Spirit Combat. What next? Does it just leave the mundane plane and go to the spirit plane, and from there to discorporate the target? Does it have to make a roll to breach the barrier between worlds itself? Is it still bound to the fetish if it has left the mundane plane?

Discorporating, crossing the barrier between worlds, has traditionally been a difficult process. This is why I'm not too happy about the "enforced discorporation" that starts a Spirit Combat. Getting to the Spirit Plane should be at least a little bit tricky, but why do shamans bother with the ritual, why don't they just get a tame spirit to Discorporate them in a single action?
 
PhilHibbs said:
Vagni said:
Also you don't have to make it a mini-scenario. So to rewrite example 2 ... Yrsa spends 2 Improvement points and buys the bound spirit.
OK, next question. Yrsa wants to use the spirit to attack someone. She commands it to come out of the binding object. It is now still on the mundane plane, though, and so can't initiate Spirit Combat. What next? Does it just leave the mundane plane and go to the spirit plane, and from there to discorporate the target? Does it have to make a roll to breach the barrier between worlds itself? Is it still bound to the fetish if it has left the mundane plane?

Discorporating, crossing the barrier between worlds, has traditionally been a difficult process. This is why I'm not too happy about the "enforced discorporation" that starts a Spirit Combat. Getting to the Spirit Plane should be at least a little bit tricky, but why do shamans bother with the ritual, why don't they just get a tame spirit to Discorporate them in a single action?

Why would she do that? The whole point of the binding is to set a trap someone else triggers. If she wanted to be more direct she would unbind a suitable spirit with the discorporation skill (and not that many of them have it) or command one she already uses and leave it at that.

Once the bottles open the binding is broken and the spirit does what comes naturally, inebriating the nearest person. The wine spirit can covertly possess, so it attempts to drag the merchants soul onto the spirit plane to take over. It's NOT automatic, the spirit must succeed in an opposed roll of his Persistence against the spirit’s Discorporation skill, spend a CA and 1 MP to do so. If it fails it can try again for 2MP, then again for 3MP...

The merchant will look dazed and loll about a bit until the spirit combat is resolved, then he either wonders what happened or finds he's suddenly even more drunk than he thought.

All of this is covered in the first article with options to make it harder for those who prefer their world that way. The core rules also have options for this too.
 
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