Shamanism for fun and Prophet
- Thread starter Exubae
- Start date
I'm still getting the impression that, while with other magic systems a failed skill roll means the loss of 1MP, an equivalent failed skill roll for a Spirit Magician can mean death or a hideous disease. The first page talks quite casually about shamans binding bane or disease spirits, yet the consequences for fumbling a skill roll to, for instance, recharge its magic points are catastrophic. Okay, if you're having to recharge its magic points then it's weakened by definition, but it might take two or three rituals to fully recharge a depleted spirit, and the last one fumbles, you've still got a dangerous spirit. Compared to other magic systems and their fumble consequences, this is a massive penalty to spirit magicians.
I'm afraid the first page of this article is only going to reinforce my player's opinion that Spirit Magic is just far too dangerous to even consider.
I'm afraid the first page of this article is only going to reinforce my player's opinion that Spirit Magic is just far too dangerous to even consider.
Deleriad
Mongoose
PhilHibbs said:
Well a fumbled skill roll for an Intensity One beetle spirit means you don't get +1 AP. A fumbled skill roll for dealing with a bane or disease spirit means you better spend a Hero Point. Ditto demonology and necromancy.
That said, if your players don't want to play spirit magicians then that's really up to them. If your players don't want to play spirit magicians in case a fumble causes them problems, then possibly they should also stick to non-combat situations; after all, fumbling a parry is bad news.
That, that said. If you don't want any risk when summoning hostile, dangerous spirits you can always use a house rule that says there is no risk.
PhilHibbs said:
Whilst I take your point, you also need to consider that most spirit magicians are not shamans and will only be dabbling in the shallow end of the tradition with a competent shaman on hand when they do. They will most likely be summoning nature spirits, which are usually fairly harmless even if they defeat you or you fail to command them. Just like flesh and blood animals they prefer to flee rather than fight.
A skilled shaman would cover his safety with guardian spirits, attendants and magical protection before even considering summoning a dangerous spirit. Once he's defeated it he can force it to a pledge of help secure in the knowledge he can safely call it forth.
If you look at the suggested modifiers in the spirit quest bit you'll see you can get cumulative bonuses of +40% or more from careful research and ritual, runic links etc, so even a novice shaman can use that to his advantage.
Shamanism IS dangerous, but only if you fail to prepare first... it's not a tradition for those wanting a quick magical fix as and when they need it.
Divine and sorcery have a more instant response, but lack a lot of the flexibility available to the shaman.
PhilHibbs said:
I would suggest they obtain an intensity 2 guardian spirit from their equipment option at that level myself. They could then buy other spirits with improvement points or spirit quests later. They also gain a fetch.
In Glorantha they also gain 6 points of common magic as well - maybe you could allow them to 'buy' more spirits with this instead?
Most of the Gloranthan spirit traditions have one or two useful spirit allies they can call on for free as well as part of their higher magic.
The Kolati are a particularly useful cult for adventuring player shamans.
Deleriad
Mongoose
PhilHibbs said:
Phil. I'm trying to understand something. Is the issue that your players want to summon and use hostile, aggressive spirits without any risk of failure and with no danger to their characters?
By hostile aggressive spirits I mean bane, curse and sickness spirits.
There is no risk involved in summoning and using friendly and neutral non-aggressive spirits. The worst that happens there is that the spirit escapes if a PC screws up.
Spirit magic as presented in the core and expanded in S&P covers the whole range of spirit equivalents to Bless Crops (nice friendly nature spirits) to Summon Demon (make sure you make no mistakes). Do your players believe that the demonology spells in Cults of Glorantha II are too dangerous? If so then clearly you have risk-averse players who should stick to safe magic. In spirit magic terms that would include sticking with non-aggressive spirits.
Anyway, as I said, it's easy to tweak the system so that the risk from aggressive, hostile spirits is reduced to nothing. It probably depends on whether your players are saying "I want to be a shaman but I'm scared of fumbling" or "actually, I would rather playing a Rune Priest or Sorcerer."
I'm just trying to see how you can do something similar with Spirit Magic to what you can do with Sorcery (Fly, Wrack, Dominate, Diminish, Animate, Boost Damage) or Divine (Flight, Thunderbolt, Truesword, Madness, sorry I don't know the divine spell list as well as I do sorcery).Deleriad said:
Lets take the first example. Fly, Flight, whatever the spells are called. Easy, cheap, safe. Binding a Sylph, in comparison, is going to get you suffocated or dropped from a great height if you fail to control it. And even if you have a friendly one from a cult that has sylphs, if someone dispels it then you have to hunt around for a wild one in whatever foreign land you are adventuring in with the aforementioned dangers.
Deleriad
Mongoose
PhilHibbs said:
The easiest way for a shaman to fly is to use a bird spirit that gives him the flying trait. The risk: someone banishing the spirit. This is exactly the same risk that a flying sorcerer faces if someone neutralises the fly spell. I don't see what is more dangerous here.
Flying with a sylph the spirit magician way.
1. Let it out of the fetish. Always works. Requires 1 CA.
2 Make a spirit binding roll. Costs 1 MP. Result of failure. Try again next action.
3. Embody sylph.
4. Fly.
Flying with a sylph the priestly way.
1. Cast command sylph. 1 CA. Sylph turns up in 1D3 rounds. Result of failure. Try again next action.
2. Ask sylph to take you for a ride.
Risks.
For a priest, casting Dismiss elemental, Dismiss Magic or equivalent means the sylph is still there but he can no longer control it. Time to fall.
For a shaman: if someone casts Banish or Dismiss Elemental he stops flying. Time to fall.
I don't see any greater risk. In general if you're flying around a place full of enemy magicians you are taking a risk whatever magic you use.
Deleriad
Mongoose
PhilHibbs said:
With the caveat that RQ is not an effects-based system so that there is no exact equivalence between different magical traditions this is how I would do the following.
Fly: Intensity 2 nature spirit that gives flying trait.
Wrack: spirit magicians generally don't blast people. Nearest equivalent would be a curse spirit. Alternately find a spirit ally that knows Wrack. (There's actually one in the LG scenario Flowers in her Hair.)
Dominate: find a nature/plant spirit to allow you to dominate that type of being. Alternately use a fetch to possess the target. If not using fetches, find an ally or ancestor who will do it for you.
Diminish. See Wrack. E.g. "Mini Me the shrinker. Intensity 2 POW 14 Curse spirit. The victim's SIZ is reduced by 14 to a minimum of 1."
Animate. You could achieve that through elemental or nature spirits. E.g. a plant spirit might be able to animate a tree. If you wanted to animate a marble statue it seems reasonable to me that you could find a marble spirit and tell it to get to work. Heck you might find a "Natural marble spirit" that allows the shaman to possess the marble himself.
Damage Enhancement. Easiest way is a nature spirit to augment damage modifier. Another way is to find a nature spirit that grants the Maximise Damage Combat Manoeuvre.
That is a mixture of simple uses straight from the rules in some cases to creative uses of spirits. Although spirit magic is not a free-form system, creative uses of spirits pretty much allows a PC shaman to achieve almost anything he can justify.
No, result is you have an uncontrolled sylph that is free to act in whatever way it wants until you make your roll. So anything other than a friendly cult spirit is an imminent peril.Deleriad said:
Not an option I'd considered, to be honest.Deleriad said:
That's why I said "similar", not "same". There's only so much fun in having magic that gives you a tiny bonus (an extra magic point, a point of armour) when everyone else is bending the universe to their will in extravagant fashion.Deleriad said:
Deleriad
Mongoose
PhilHibbs said:
Here's the exact quote from S&P 89 (page 19)
Other things to realise. An uncontrolled spirit that is released from the fetish while the fetish is unbroken cannot discorporate anyone as it is still bound to the mundane plane. Second they cannot flee by roaming far from the fetish.
A released spirit (fetish is broken) from S&P 89 pg 21:
I read that to mean that an air elemental spirit will instantly for a body from the air, and an earth elemental spirit which is released at ground level forms a body from the earth. Maybe it takes a CA to do this, so the shaman will always have a second attempt to control it. This inherent second chance with elementals hadn't occurred to me when I was discussing the situation with my player.Deleriad said:
