Shadows Hyperspace Mastery?

[ShopKeepJon]

I need some clarification...

For anyone other than the shadows, one ship can open a jump point from hyperspace allowing several ships to enter a battle. Then, a different ship could open a jump point into hyperspace allowing the same ships to withdraw from the battle. The Shadows, who supposedly have mastery of hyperspace, can't do this. Since they never create an actual jump point, each ship must enter or leave hyperspace on its own.

The ACTA FAQ says:
"Q. Does the Shadows' Hyperspace Mastery allow them to jump in and out of a battle, or are they restricted to either coming in or out in the same way as other ships?
A. Same as other ships, I am afraid."

This means that the Shadows are the only fleet that cannot both enter and withdraw from a battle via hyperspace.

Until I saw the FAQ I had always assumed that they could both enter the battle and then leave the battle via hyperspace since the rulebook restriction was explicitly against opening more than one jump point,

"Once a jump point counter has been removed, the ship that created it may not initiate another one, as its jump engines have to recharge."

I also assumed that they could not leave and then come back since, as per the rules, entering hyperspace would be considered withdrawing from the battle.

I seem to have been wrong... Are the Shadows really supposed to be restricted in this way or am I misinterpreting the FAQ?

ShopKeepJon

 

[LaranosTZ]

Basically, as it is explained in another rules thread, this ruling does not apply to the shadows.

The reason?

Shadows do not generate jump points, nor do they have the jump engine trait. Hyperspace mastery states that you do not create a jump point, you simply place the shadow vessel on the board in a position of your choosing, no scattering, nothing.

Similarly, shadows do not jump out in a normal fashion, the turn you wish them to leave you simply declare that they are leaving, then in the following turn you remove the ship from the board.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

As I said, that was always my interpretation. The rules as written seemed fairly clear.

Until I saw the FAQ I had always assumed that they could both enter the battle and then leave the battle via hyperspace since the rulebook restriction was explicitly against opening more than one jump point,

"Once a jump point counter has been removed, the ship that created it may not initiate another one, as its jump engines have to recharge."

I also assumed that they could not leave and then come back since, as per the rules, entering hyperspace would be considered withdrawing from the battle.

The problem I had was with the ruling presented in the current FAQ.

The ACTA FAQ says:
"Q. Does the Shadows' Hyperspace Mastery allow them to jump in and out of a battle, or are they restricted to either coming in or out in the same way as other ships?
A. Same as other ships, I am afraid."

This directly contradicts everything that you said... Hence my request for help on this matter...

ShopKeepJon

 

[stryve]

I think what that quote is refering to is the whole 'entering hyperspace counts as a tactical withdrawl' rule. Like what has been discussed in the recent Blue Star thread.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

I think what that quote is refering to is the whole 'entering hyperspace counts as a tactical withdrawl' rule. Like what has been discussed in the recent Blue Star thread.

I suspect that was the intention of the FAQ answer, but it isn't what it actually says.

The ACTA FAQ says:
"Q. Does the Shadows' Hyperspace Mastery allow them to jump in and out of a battle, or are they restricted to either coming in or out in the same way as other ships?
A. Same as other ships, I am afraid."

The FAQ clearly says that, "they are restricted to either coming in or out in the same way as other ships" (my own emphasis).

The intention may have been to say that they are considered to have withdrawn if they enter hyperspace from a battle and are otherwise unrestricted, but this is not what was written. As per the current FAQ, Shadow ships may either enter a battle from hyperspace or leave a battle into hyperspace, but may not do both.

If this is simply a badly worded question and response, I would like to see an official clarification soon.

ShopKeepJon

 

[Shadow Queen]

When the shadows jumpout they cant return to the fight.

When they jumpin they act normaly IE: they can move and fire

 

[Sulfurdown]

I've been of the idea that the Ancients (Shadows and Vorlons inclusive) should have maintained the old 3 round recharge rules for Jump Points. They are far more advanced then the younger races and since the only race that "could" use it as a JPB, can't because they don't create jump points. If for no other reason then I still think there should be an encouragement to use the jump point to leave the table rather then just running to an edge since it leaves ships more vulnerable to IJP! rather then just running.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

When the shadows jumpout they cant return to the fight.

When they jumpin they act normaly IE: they can move and fire

Yes, I understand that. The question is can a Shadow ship jump out of hyperspace and then withdraw from the battle by jumping back into hyperspace? The rules say that they can, but the FAQ says that they can't.

Again, for reference:

The ACTA FAQ says:
"Q. Does the Shadows' Hyperspace Mastery allow them to jump in and out of a battle, or are they restricted to either coming in or out in the same way as other ships?
A. Same as other ships, I am afraid."

ShopKeepJon

 

[Shadow Queen]

In a word no

 

[ShopKeepJon]

In a word no

This problem arose from too terse an answer to the question in the FAQ. Your response doesn't help...

I don't normally like to pester the powers that be for questions like this, but can anyone suggest a way for me to get a clearly worded clarification on this issue (preferably inserted into the FAQ) from an official source?

ShopKeepJon

 

[nekomata fuyu]

The question that FAQ was in response to was pretty much exactly the question you're asking. Unfortunately, yes, the Shadows are now pretty much the only race out there whose ships can't enter the battle from hyperspace and leave later on.

 

[H]

The question that FAQ was in response to was pretty much exactly the question you're asking. Unfortunately, yes, the Shadows are now pretty much the only race out there whose ships can't enter the battle from hyperspace and leave later on.

but on a plus side, they can happily turn round and just fly off the table usually easier than anyone else can.
personally, i think given the nature of shadows they should be able to Phase out as well, they are hit and run type folks, maybe Matt can review this and update it in an S+P article?

as for a No answer not being helpful, it was none the less an answer to the question. you can argue with it all you want, but the answer will remain the same until such time as matt revises the rules. you can keep posting objections as long as you want.

 

[Locutus9956]

If the ruling is that shadows cant jump out again after entering from hyperspace then quite frankly I think we'll be houseruling that they (and Vorlons too for that matter) CAN.

It strikes me as incomparibly stupid to limit the ancient drives in this way.

Basically what we need are two one word answers to the following questions from an OFFICIAL source (ie Matt):

Question 1: If a Shadodw ship jumps out to hyperspace can it later returen to the game?

Question 2: If a Shadow ship jumps in from hyperspace can it later disengage by jumping out?

Personally from the FAQ and so on I suspect the answer will be:

1) No
2) No

But I really REALLY think it ought to be

1) No
2) Yes

And will house rule it thusly at our club (and the same for Vorlons) if that ISNT the actual ruling. Im all for sticking to the official rules but if one of those rules is just, well, dumb. Then I'll happily change it for local games

 

[lastbesthope]

I don't normally like to pester the powers that be for questions like this, but can anyone suggest a way for me to get a clearly worded clarification on this issue (preferably inserted into the FAQ) from an official source?

ShopKeepJon

Email Matthew (msprange@mongoosepublishing.com) and ask the question(s) in a format that can only be answered yes or no.

LBH

 

[ShopKeepJon]

as for a No answer not being helpful, it was none the less an answer to the question. you can argue with it all you want, but the answer will remain the same until such time as matt revises the rules. you can keep posting objections as long as you want.

I didn't have a problem with the answer being "no". I had a problem with the terseness of the answer. If you look back, you will find that I am fully aware that the FAQ answer is "no". I am not objecting to the answer. I am looking for an explanation of why the FAQ contradicts the rules as written and, more importantly, are they supposed to do so.

Having a person who is not an official Mongoose rules person (to the best of my knowledge) simply say "In a word no", without even referencing the question that is being answered, is not useful. The question being answered should have been quoted to avoid confusion with other posts in this thread and an explanation of reasoning should have been given. That's how conversation and debate works. If the game designer himself came down and said "in a word no" I would be more willing to accept the answer as true, but I would still ask for an explanation as to why.

I will try to find time to write to Matthew (as was suggested) later tonight.

ShopKeepJon

 

[ShopKeepJon]

The question that FAQ was in response to was pretty much exactly the question you're asking. Unfortunately, yes, the Shadows are now pretty much the only race out there whose ships can't enter the battle from hyperspace and leave later on.

Thank you, I appreciate your taking the time to confirm what I suspected. I was afraid that other people would read this the same way I did...

Now I have to find a way to explain it to our Shadows player. He won't be happy...

ShopKeepJon

 

[Ripple]

especially as this contradicts what we see the shadows doing in the show. Though I guess you could try to fluff it off as the shadows only phase out 'after' the battle is over.

-edit- what was this intended to fix. What was true in first ed about the three turn limit that was insufficient?

Ripple

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Three turns seemed fine to charge the jump engines to me, and Shadows being able to enter and leave the battle almost at will matched the show nicely. Not something that needed to change as far as I could tell.

 

[Sulfurdown]

I'm fairly confident that it was meant to fix the issues with jump point bombing. (and streamline it so there is less time tracking/bookkeeping.)