Shadow/Vorlon Special S/As

[Sulfurdown]

Batting around some ideas for a substitute for the Ancient's lack of CBD! If used as a set of house rules how about this:

Half-Phasing (Shadows Only): Shadow ships can make extreme use of their hyperspace mastery to partially shift into hyperspace during combat. While half-phasing the shadow vessels may not fire but gain Dodge 4+. Any hits the ship takes that go past the shields would be applied to the ship and directly to its phasing drive. Under these extreme conditions if more damage is done then the stun rating, the ship is immediately destroyed.

Open Solar Collectors (Vorlon Only): Vorlon ships can open their solar collectors under normal conditions to gather more energy to make repairs and otherwise replenish their ships. During combat this can be a dangerous but beneficial maneuver, reducing the Hull value of the Vorlon vessel by one point while it's self-repairing value is doubled and it's Speed is increased by 25%

 

[Hash]

Batting around some ideas for a substitute for the Ancient's lack of CBD! If used as a set of house rules how about this:

Half-Phasing (Shadows Only): Shadow ships can make extreme use of their hyperspace mastery to partially shift into hyperspace during combat. While half-phasing the shadow vessels may not fire but gain Dodge 4+. Any hits the ship takes that go past the shields would be applied to the ship and directly to its phasing drive. Under these extreme conditions if more damage is done then the stun rating, the ship is immediately destroyed.

Open Solar Collectors (Vorlon Only): Vorlon ships can open their solar collectors under normal conditions to gather more energy to make repairs and otherwise replenish their ships. During combat this can be a dangerous but beneficial maneuver, reducing the Hull value of the Vorlon vessel by one point while it's self-repairing value is doubled and it's Speed is increased by 25%

I like both those ideas - gives Shadows and Vorlons some more tactical options from their limited SA set! I'd be wary of "doubling" the Vorlon self-repair though - I would probably change that to a +1 (per die) instead.

 

[Da Boss]

I also like them - very interesting - although I agree with Hash re the Volron dice...............

 

[Ripple]

I like the ideas, great flavor.

I am a bit wary of complicating the Ancients unnecessarily, why not give them cbd? Are they really that much larger than their opponents? Are their defense so exotic that other races don't have similar benefits?

Just saying we went over a bit of this in another thread, their doesn't seem to be a reason for the restricted list in second ed. In first ed the ships worked so differently they needed to be covered by their own rules, in second ed they are not structurally different from other ships. Rather than creating a list that much be inclusive why not outlaw otherwise standard rules that prove themselves to be a problem under second ed.

Ripple

 

[Sulfurdown]

I am a bit wary of complicating the Ancients unnecessarily, why not give them cbd? Are they really that much larger than their opponents? Are their defense so exotic that other races don't have similar benefits?

Assuming one isn't using CBD! for the Ancients, I enjoy the variability of races to help give them a unique flavor. Just hoping not to go too far! What if the Vorlon S/A halved weapon AD (the original idea, but somehow I forgot that block of text... I'm going to blame that on being ill)?

 

[angelus2000]

I like the flavor of both of the rules, but not the implementation. Getting past the stun rating on young and ancient shadow ships is easier said than done under normal circumstances. Giving them the ability to dodge half the hits from even a beam weapon would be beyond broken, even with the insta-poof drawback. Now if the dodge were based on PL though....

The vorlon is almost good out of the gate. The speed bonus is nice and so is the lowering of the hull rating(which actually makes some sense given what we see of vorlon design IRT transports and destroyers. I'd swap the self repair for either some kind of weapon increase or more turning; the self-repair thing almost defeats the inherent drawback.

 

[Ripple]

These are supposed to be instead of CBD, which increases the damage/crew score of younger races' ships by 1/3. The whole idea here is to help stretch the damage numbers in a similar way, adding more turns or more weapons would be an entirely different goal. That would replace CAF.

The shadow one I'm not sure I understand your objection. The ship is still taking damage, just has a good dodge on a turn its not attacking. It basically gives up it's attack to gain a 1/2 save vs damage, where as CBD gives up some firepower (that you may not even be able to use) for a 1/3 save. And it risks death unlike a ship on CBD.

The younger ship has a stun threshold of 19 and a shield of 10/5. You would need to hit a war level ship with 29 damage, doubled due to dodge 4+, so 54 damage to destroy it. Seems pretty close to me...and what does he gain from giving up ANY ability to harm you, about 7 points of damage and 5 shield boxes.

The ancient ship is similar, but you need 58 damage to auto destroy it. Gives I would have in theory 4 battle level hulls to dish out that damage, it wouldn't take a very bad roll on the shadows part to end up dead. Thats 10 hits from a triple damage beam, with four battle level ships firing, I can see that happening. Frankly all you need to do is hit him for 20 points and you've removed any gain he was likely to make.

Not slamming just wondering what you see the shadow gaining by this that is so over the top, particularly in comparison to the effect CBD can have.

Ripple

 

[DrSeltsam]

I like the flavor of both of the rules, but not the implementation. Getting past the stun rating on young and ancient shadow ships is easier said than done under normal circumstances. Giving them the ability to dodge half the hits from even a beam weapon would be beyond broken, even with the insta-poof drawback. Now if the dodge were based on PL though....

The vorlon is almost good out of the gate. The speed bonus is nice and so is the lowering of the hull rating(which actually makes some sense given what we see of vorlon design IRT transports and destroyers. I'd swap the self repair for either some kind of weapon increase or more turning; the self-repair thing almost defeats the inherent drawback.

Getting past the stun rate of the Stalker ( mighty 7pt :wink: ) and the young Ship ( 19 ) is not that hard with the current level of DD weapons and criticals. The ancient Ship is a little bit hard with 38 but not impossible and you will have to consider that this would mean a instant-kill option on a Armageddon PL ship :roll:

It sounds like a variant CBD with a real BIG risk factor ... a CBD on a normal ship is still much more a problem to fight against.

Anyway i would like to see any kind of new SA for both fleets or any other fleet.

 

[Burger]

Problem with the Vorlons losing a hull point, is that it will not matter against Beam fleets. Against Minbari, ISA, Shadows etc, Vorlons will use the SA constantly since hull is irrelevant. I'd replace it with no turns allowed and all weapons AD are halved - though that might be a bit harsh...

The Shadows one doesn't seem much use, either. Well maybe if you're running away like in a Blockade Run scenario. But in general use, you're losing all your firepower to halve (roughly) the damage you take.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

How about an SA for both races that halves AD and adds and extra die or +1 to the self-repair score? It's like CBD but it's got a special First Ones style...

 

[DrSeltsam]

How about an SA for both races that halves AD and adds and extra die or +1 to the self-repair score? It's like CBD but it's got a special First Ones style...

That's a nice idea but i don't think that it will be used. The bonus on self-repair does not justify the AD loose. The output from self-repair will not even come close to the damage taken. It's always better to dodge the hit as to take the hit ( and maybe a critical ) .... CBD is still far superior IMHO.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Maybe double the self-repair number then? Either that or just let them use CBD. I don't know why they can't anyway...

 

[DrSeltsam]

Maybe double the self-repair number then? Either that or just let them use CBD. I don't know why they can't anyway...

I would support the "give-CBD-to-all!" , "free-drinks-for-ancients-too" and "i-want-a-free-shirt-too! party :roll:

Maybe the same reason way Shadows ( just to remember : the guys in the show that phase out & in of hyperspace multiple times ) can't enter and leave hyperspace in the same scenario / battle :roll:

 

[Ripple]

I do see the use for the Shadow one in any situation where you are running or trying to survive to get behind cover to start recovering from a pass....something like that. Preserving an initiative sink can sometimes be more important than getting a few more shots in.

Good point about the Vorlon one, hadn't considered the beam interaction. I like the fluff of it, the no turn idea isn't bad. Or maybe they are one easier to hit on the die roll...meaning beams hit on 3's initially? Eh, folks can't handle changing target numbers. No I think I like having the beam best.

If the SA for +1 to self repair was +1 or +1 per die maybe. That way it actually helps older ships more...but shadows don't gain much.

Ripple

 

[Hash]

The Shadows one doesn't seem much use, either. Well maybe if you're running away like in a Blockade Run scenario. But in general use, you're losing all your firepower to halve (roughly) the damage you take.

Ah but special actions aren't for "general" use, they're a trade-off of some ability for another in a special situation that merits the trade.

I would use this special action to...

1. Approach pesky younger races with longer range weaponry

2. When maneuvering for a better position (hence targets not in F arc or just out of range

3. Main gun temporarily offline (due to crits)

4. My "engines" have been knocked out due to crits and hence I cannot move or designate the model as an initiative sink unless I use an SA (as I understand the 2e ruling on this, you can only nominate a ship if it can do something...actually in my last game this led to the ridiculous use of "Scramble, Scramble" so I could force my opponent to move a ship before mine!)

 

[angelus2000]

I made a serious error with my comment on the shadow rule. I missed the part where it gives up all ability to fire when usings this SA. Thats what I get for readind something when I just wake up Taking that into light, it goes from "broken" to "quite reasonable".