Shadizar Boxed Set Map?

[sbarrie]

If the proofreader didn't see the map, that may mean that the map was late...

Note that in another post, msprange said that Messantia was held up over the main map. The same artist...?
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5269

 

[gav]

Paluka wrote
. Checking that a map has been used elsewhere is tough. Checking that the map actually depicts the city described in the text is easy


This is what I dont understand, wouldnt someone in charge of the final approval of the product notice that the map is not as described in the text?
I agree that the proof reader cannot possibly know without the maps to look at, I also agree that it would be hard to check if the material has already been used.
Or maybe the map is a close likeness to the text and the artist in question thought he/she could slip it in on the sly.
Im sure Mongoose will get to the bottom of it, although Im still pissed off.

 

[Mayhem]

I feel ripped off, you can download the same city map for free from the Wizards of the Coast website! What gives? :x

Feeling "ripped off" is a bit over the top, isn't it? Last time I looked there was considerably more in the box than a single map!

 

[The King]

Take it easy. The DMs can now enjoy the map of Shadizar without the need to scan it. So they can even work on it to add things to suit their feeling.
The possibility to download a map isn't the same as to have it on paper. For instance you can download the map of the Hyborian world on this site, but the map from the DM's screen is far better.
I think it is more a question of trust between Mongoose and the "artist" (did he only draw the map or just downloaded it?), and Mongoose can really feel being "swindled" in the matter, all the more as this map is in the 2003 archive!

What disturbs me is that the canal is really large and cross almost all the city. Considering Shadizar is located on some rough and arid ground I would have considered a canal only in the palace area.

Now I will tell you a little story: many can remember the excellent cover arts of Brom on the books of the AD&D2 Dark Sun settings. But did anybody ever complained that the covers didn't always correspond exactly to the content.


PS: does anyone at Mongoose have some free books for me?

 

[Paluka]

Take it easy. The DMs can now enjoy the map of Shadizar without the need to scan it. So they can even work on it to add things to suit their feeling.
What disturbs me is that the canal is really large and cross almost all the city. Considering Shadizar is located on some rough and arid ground I would have considered a canal only in the palace area.

I think you are missing the point. There isn't supposed to be a canal at all.

 

[RabidAntiShemite]

That Canal City is actually a remake from the map of a city named Eltabbar, in the Forgotten Realms. I might be mistaken on this, but I'm fairly sure that I'm right. Notice the runic look of the waterways? That is an actual rune that used to imprison a demon lord below the city.

RAS

 

[Anonymous]

Feeling "ripped off" is a bit over the top, isn't it? Last time I looked there was considerably more in the box than a single map!


Dude, I paid $40.00! and I was expecting a cool poster map. They re-packaged some freeware junk and passed it off as new!

There are plenty of RPG companies that are just falling over themselves to get my $40.00 and provide me with original content.!

 

[The King]

Take it easy. The DMs can now enjoy the map of Shadizar without the need to scan it. So they can even work on it to add things to suit their feeling.
What disturbs me is that the canal is really large and cross almost all the city. Considering Shadizar is located on some rough and arid ground I would have considered a canal only in the palace area.

I think you are missing the point. There isn't supposed to be a canal at all.

Not at all. IIRC Howard doesn't describe Shadizar very much, but gives somes details of Arenjun in the story "The tower of the Elephant". So a canal is not totally unlikely even if you could reply that if this were a canal city, Howard would have written at least one line about it.

 

[Paluka]

Take it easy. The DMs can now enjoy the map of Shadizar without the need to scan it. So they can even work on it to add things to suit their feeling.
What disturbs me is that the canal is really large and cross almost all the city. Considering Shadizar is located on some rough and arid ground I would have considered a canal only in the palace area.

I think you are missing the point. There isn't supposed to be a canal at all.

Not at all. IIRC Howard doesn't describe Shadizar very much, but gives somes details of Arenjun in the story "The tower of the Elephant". So a canal is not totally unlikely even if you could reply that if this were a canal city, Howard would have written at least one line about it.

But the text as written by Vincent does not mention any canals.

 

[Faraer]

The 'Canal City of Mystery' map on wizards.com is Dennis Kauth's map of Eltabbar from TSR's Spellbound boxed set. 'Of Mystery' because the Red Wizards of Thay used to forbid possession of maps of the city.

This is simply not a map of Shadizar.

 

[The King]

I think you are missing the point. There isn't supposed to be a canal at all.

Not at all. IIRC Howard doesn't describe Shadizar very much, but gives somes details of Arenjun in the story "The tower of the Elephant". So a canal is not totally unlikely even if you could reply that if this were a canal city, Howard would have written at least one line about it.

But the text as written by Vincent does not mention any canals.

Ok, I understand now.
Then this lack of communication between all the participants of the Shadizar boxed set is somewhat surprising indeed. How can it be possible that in such a team work everyone is working almost in secret?

 

[sanseveria]

The 'Canal City of Mystery' map on wizards.com is Dennis Kauth's map of Eltabbar from TSR's Spellbound boxed set. 'Of Mystery' because the Red Wizards of Thay used to forbid possession of maps of the city.

Quick, we need to self destruct this thread, if my players see this they`ll want to teleport their FR characters to Shadizar... :lol:

SS

 

[greenjelly]

I think you guys are overreacting to a ridiculous degree. Mongoose hired someone to make a map of Shadizar, this guy sent a map that was previously published (im assuming he did it, and just resubmitted it to Mongoose), how were they to know it was on WOTC website? Should they check every single RPG website from now on and check all the maps to make sure the ARTIST doesnt do it again?

Whether the guy stole it because he couldnt finish one himself in time, and submitted it, or he just sent that in as the map, Mongoose wouldnt have known.

I cant believe how anal RPG fans are. You arent getting ripped off, it is the ARTISTS fault, not Mongooses.

Just because Vincent doesnt say there are canals in the city, doesnt mean that the person putting it all together knows that there arent. (And also, just because he doesnt SAY there are no canals, doesnt mean there arent, after all, it probably doesnt say there are wells in the city for water, that doesnt mean they arent there) Not everyone is an expert in an age that never existed. So whoever put it together did so with the faith the ARTIST had submitted the correct map with the correct specifications he was given, he took a look at the map, saw that it looked fine and didnt know enough about the minutiae of Conans world to know any different.

I cant believe some of you are blaming the company when its so obviously a case of someone screwing Mongoose, not Mongoose screwing us.

 

[Paluka]

Just because Vincent doesnt say there are canals in the city, doesnt mean that the person putting it all together knows that there arent. (And also, just because he doesnt SAY there are no canals, doesnt mean there arent, after all, it probably doesnt say there are wells in the city for water, that doesnt mean they arent there) Not everyone is an expert in an age that never existed. So whoever put it together did so with the faith the ARTIST had submitted the correct map with the correct specifications he was given, he took a look at the map, saw that it looked fine and didnt know enough about the minutiae of Conans world to know any different.

I completely disagree with this. It is very clear that a lot of research went into the Conan game. A group of people cleary read all the REH material, the pastiches and comics and whatever and used all these sources do design a game and the world the game takes place in. Vincent clearly does a lot of research in his books. It only makes sense that the people who do all the research and writing would communicate to the artist what the city should look like. I would hope it would be detailed enough to include specific important locations. The idea that the author/researcher would not be given the map to approve or dissapprove before printing makes zero sense to me. I have no interest in buying products that are created through this sort of system.

 

[greenjelly]

But Vincent doesnt own Conan, he is hired to write books for Conan, not proofread every single book/map that is published, just as the editors arent hired to check Vincent got all of the facts right when he hands a book to them, they hired Vincent to do that HIMSELF, just like the artist was hired to do the map properly, not send in one thats already been published.

Im sure theres a few things here or there that editors catch, but by and large they are there for spelling mistakes, checking stats and prestige classes, layout the book etc. Otherwise, why bother getting an expert to write for Conan if you only have to check through every single thing he wrote? You may as well just have the editor write the book. Same with the artists, if you ask for a specific map, you shouldnt need to keep calling him about it. Its called professionalism, and I doubt the artist in question is going to get any more work from ANYONE now.

Again, its a simple case of the person receiving the map not having knowledge of every single part of Hyboria. I cant believe the anger being levelled at Mongoose because of what an artist did. Its completely unfair, particularly as everyone here KNOWS Mongoose goes out of their way to make up for any mistakes made, so it isnt like they wont post a revised map or whatever (or knowing Mongoose they will have you send the map for an exchange or something).

 

[Faraer]

Maybe Mongoose could have been more circumspect, maybe not, who knows? Waste of time to recriminate them, in any case. The point is that those of us who've bought Shadizar were sold a map of Shadizar and didn't get one. The company is now doing something about it, and we've no reason yet to suppose the solution will be unsatisfactory.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

The idea that the author/researcher would not be given the map to approve or dissapprove before printing makes zero sense to me. I have no interest in buying products that are created through this sort of system.

Well, toss out pretty much every product you have with a map, then.

Writer's don't generally see the map (or any final art, for that matter) before a product sees print. In fact, it's incredibly rare for a writer to have any say in the art in any way, shape or form. That's what are directors and/or line editors are for.

It may well turn out that someone at Mongoose dropped the ball here, but in NO way should that ball fall at Vincent's feet.

 

[mthomason]

Those who already have a copy of the boxed set should be thinking this, rather than negative thoughts about being screwed:

This product will most likely never see print again containing this map. What you now have in your possession is one of those items that in a few years will sell on eBay for twice it's purchase price in rarity value

 

[Paluka]

Writer's don't generally see the map (or any final art, for that matter) before a product sees print. In fact, it's incredibly rare for a writer to have any say in the art in any way, shape or form. That's what are directors and/or line editors are for.

It may well turn out that someone at Mongoose dropped the ball here, but in NO way should that ball fall at Vincent's feet.

I don't blame Vincent for this at all. I'm sure he did exactly what Mongoose hired him to do.
I admit I don't know much about how RPG books are produced, but there has to be some distinction between maps and other kind of art. I 100% agree that this is a scummy thing for the artist to do. But if this is how the process works aren't mistakes like this bound to happen in the future?

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I don't blame Vincent for this at all. I'm sure he did exactly what Mongoose hired him to do.
I admit I don't know much about how RPG books are produced, but there has to be some distinction between maps and other kind of art. I 100% agree that this is a scummy thing for the artist to do. But if this is how the process works aren't mistakes like this bound to happen in the future?

Your comment I had responded to indicated you thought the writer should somehow have approval over maps and the like. I'm just telling you that the norm is anything but such a process. ALL art, be it a map, cover or interior illustration, is never the writer's responsibility short of the writer taking on two hats, such as also being the art director or artist. The scenario you presented isn't how the process normally works, which is my point of contention. If the map truly doesn't match the city, then the art director and/or line editor would shoulder the responsibility for not catching the discrepency, regardless of whether the map was taken from another source (as seems to be the case here) or was simply way off base for what was needed.