SDB's vs. Warships

[locarno24]

Somewhat surprisingly, the economics of refuelling like this don't really add up, for a merchant ship at least. GGs are usually some distance from the main world, which is where you want to go, and what you save in fuel costs are lost in the transit time to the destination where you intend to off-load.

Of course, if you are not trading, and have plenty of time to wander around the out-system, then fine, I doubt if the Imperial authorities will be bothered if you scoop a little hydrogen.

You'll probably find that the 'gas giant refuel' only really gets used by people who have no business at the system's mainworld - or in a 'transit' uninhabited system between two actual settled worlds.

Even assuming you jump in at the gas giant, something like Jupiter (Diameter ~140,000 Km) it will take somewhere in the region of 10 hours at a merchant's 2G acceleration to reach the upper atmosphere, and a similar time to break back to the jump limit.

That means that on reaching a gas giant, you've got about 10+D6+24+10 hours - 2 days - of refuelling operations before you can jump out again...

 

[F33D]

While even the tramps should be capable of carrying containers, if anyone is carrying break-bulk, it will be the tramps.

They can, but IMTU Starports won't take it in the 1st place. So, you'll see it at D starports on TL5 or less planets only.

 

[GypsyComet]

While even the tramps should be capable of carrying containers, if anyone is carrying break-bulk, it will be the tramps.

They can, but IMTU Starports won't take it in the 1st place. So, you'll see it at D starports on TL5 or less planets only.

That's a bit of a broad brush, but it does depend on what size you are thinking of when you say "container". When *I* say "break-bulk" I'm referring to packages smaller than the already portrayed 4-ton container. They can still be pretty large, and given that the commerce rules work in whole tons, either whole ton or half ton containers are probably as small as any same Captain will deal with directly. Packing the hold with separate shoe boxes is not what I had in mind.

The standard map is going to have a lot of worlds with only a small city's worth of people total, and C+ ports are very common as well. The port's cargo processing in such places is more likely to be a combination of seaport and airport. Most ports already handle mail, but that is containerized for security purposes, and probably in half-ton or one-ton blocks. Possibly smaller, given that some of the Mongoose deckplans put cargo in amazing places...

 

[AndrewW]

That's a bit of a broad brush, but it does depend on what size you are thinking of when you say "container". When *I* say "break-bulk" I'm referring to packages smaller than the already portrayed 4-ton container. They can still be pretty large, and given that the commerce rules work in whole tons, either whole ton or half ton containers are probably as small as any same Captain will deal with directly. Packing the hold with separate shoe boxes is not what I had in mind.

Could be occasional indvidual packages needing delivery, such as someone with a relative on a anohter world they want to send a gift to.

Possibly smaller, given that some of the Mongoose deckplans put cargo in amazing places...

There is occasionaly some with a smaller cargo hold located near the staterooms for personal storage and such. So there may be a reason for not having it all together in one big hold.

 

[F33D]

While even the tramps should be capable of carrying containers, if anyone is carrying break-bulk, it will be the tramps.

They can, but IMTU Starports won't take it in the 1st place. So, you'll see it at D starports on TL5 or less planets only.

That's a bit of a broad brush, but it does depend on what size you are thinking of when you say "container". When *I* say "break-bulk" I'm referring to packages smaller than the already portrayed 4-ton container. They can still be pretty large, and given that the commerce rules work in whole tons, either whole ton or half ton containers are probably as small as any same Captain will deal with directly. Packing the hold with separate shoe boxes is not what I had in mind.

The standard map is going to have a lot of worlds with only a small city's worth of people total, and C+ ports are very common as well. The port's cargo processing in such places is more likely to be a combination of seaport and airport. Most ports already handle mail, but that is containerized for security purposes, and probably in half-ton or one-ton blocks. Possibly smaller, given that some of the Mongoose deckplans put cargo in amazing places...

The smallest IMTU is 1 Ton. 2-4 ton being the average. As far as MGT Merchant ship deckplans? I disregard as they are shoddy in their accuracy and are not designed from a function monitors form viewpoint.

 

[GypsyComet]

That's a bit of a broad brush, but it does depend on what size you are thinking of when you say "container". When *I* say "break-bulk" I'm referring to packages smaller than the already portrayed 4-ton container. They can still be pretty large, and given that the commerce rules work in whole tons, either whole ton or half ton containers are probably as small as any same Captain will deal with directly. Packing the hold with separate shoe boxes is not what I had in mind.

Could be occasional indvidual packages needing delivery, such as someone with a relative on a anohter world they want to send a gift to.

That would be mail, or, by the example of some old JTAS material, a small Cr Patron.

Possibly smaller, given that some of the Mongoose deckplans put cargo in amazing places...

There is occasionaly some with a smaller cargo hold located near the staterooms for personal storage and such. So there may be a reason for not having it all together in one big hold.

What the passengers and crew bring aboard is also going to be a different handling mechanism, but is one of the reasons I mention airports. One of the little known services at airports is gate-to-gate personal shipping, for when it has to be across the country *today*.

 

[GypsyComet]

The smallest IMTU is 1 Ton. 2-4 ton being the average. As far as MGT Merchant ship deckplans? I disregard as they are shoddy in their accuracy and are not designed from a function monitors form viewpoint.

So not too incompatible, then.

I don't automatically toss their deckplans out, but that is because a) I can do my own revisions should I need to, and b) not all cultures think like we do.

 

[F33D]

So not too incompatible, then.

I don't automatically toss their deckplans out, but that is because a) I can do my own revisions should I need to, and b) not all cultures think like we do.

Yes, pretty compatible. I also do my own deckplans. As far as culture, I'm assuming that because of the extreme cost of starship tonnage, the best designs will eventually force out uneconomical ones. In a Free market they will 100% of the time.

 

[Condottiere]

I doubt that in military procurement, except in existential struggles.

The best bang for your buck militarized ground vehicle is the four wheel drive Toyota pickup, and it's cousins, also referred to as technicals. I don't see those replacing Bradleys, Jackals or Warriors anytime soon in the NATO arsenal. Or even in Russia's.

As regards small cargoes, shipping companies can sell space in standard containers. You probably have to have them packed in the vacuum equivalent of standard pallets.

 

[rust]

The best bang for your buck militarized ground vehicle is the four wheel drive Toyota pickup, and it's cousins, also referred to as technicals. I don't see those replacing Bradleys, Jackals or Warriors anytime soon in the NATO arsenal.

The new generation of light armoured vehicles currently introduced in several European armed for-
ces consists of designs which are basically "upgraded technicals" with some added armour as pro-
tection against for example IEDs. Examples are the Eagle and the Enok.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mowag_Eagle_IV.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundeswehr_LAPV_Enok.png?uselang=de

 

[F33D]

The best bang for your buck militarized ground vehicle is the four wheel drive Toyota pickup, and it's cousins, also referred to as technicals. I don't see those replacing Bradleys, Jackals or Warriors anytime soon in the NATO arsenal.

The new generation of light armoured vehicles currently introduced in several European armed for-
ces consists of designs which are basically "upgraded technicals" with some added armour as pro-
tection against for example IEDs. Examples are the Eagle and the Enok.

Here's an example of a US model: http://www.military1.com/products/military-vehicles/video/284205-force-protection-cheetah-4x4-mmpv

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Somewhat surprisingly, the economics of refuelling like this don't really add up, for a merchant ship at least. GGs are usually some distance from the main world, which is where you want to go, and what you save in fuel costs are lost in the transit time to the destination where you intend to off-load.

Of course, if you are not trading, and have plenty of time to wander around the out-system, then fine, I doubt if the Imperial authorities will be bothered if you scoop a little hydrogen.

You'll probably find that the 'gas giant refuel' only really gets used by people who have no business at the system's mainworld - or in a 'transit' uninhabited system between two actual settled worlds.

Even assuming you jump in at the gas giant, something like Jupiter (Diameter ~140,000 Km) it will take somewhere in the region of 10 hours at a merchant's 2G acceleration to reach the upper atmosphere, and a similar time to break back to the jump limit.

That means that on reaching a gas giant, you've got about 10+D6+24+10 hours - 2 days - of refuelling operations before you can jump out again...

Agreed.

Egil

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I put Bay weapons in my SDBs and they become MUCH tougher.

Also, the SDB's listed in the literature are all the smaller ones. There are SDB's that can take on Cruisers and Battleships - they are typically called Monitors.

Also, for a typical Traveller game, you don't need a 50KTn Monitor stopping a Free Trader for smuggling inspections!

 

[F33D]

Also, for a typical Traveller game, you don't need a 50KTn Monitor stopping a Free Trader for smuggling inspections!

Truth. Now, speaking of smugglers, they have to land and refuel 99% of the time. When they are landed is when you inspect them. One 6G 400t SDB somewhere inside the planets 100D limit is all you need for the very infrequent outbound intercept.

 

[locarno24]

Also, for a typical Traveller game, you don't need a 50KTn Monitor stopping a Free Trader for smuggling inspections!

Need, no. Want?

Sometimes a little fear is good for players.

speaking of smugglers, they have to land and refuel 99% of the time. When they are landed is when you inspect them. One 6G 400t SDB somewhere inside the planets 100D limit is all you need for the very infrequent outbound intercept.

True if you're only talking about someone inbound to the world's lowport; realistically your patrol region of interest is a cone with the apex at the downport and the 'face' at the 100D jump perimeter. That probably makes for two ships in real life (because one will be down for maintenance or training some of the time), which to the way the military plan things probably means three (so you can always have a reserve in case of failures/accidents even during maintenance draw-downs).

A ship coming in to land on the opposite side of the planet would take rather more intercepting (although if it's going to land to offload you've still probably got time with a 6G gunship), but only if, as you say, it doesn't need to refuel. Something capable of a double-jump is more of an issue, but that only really pops up as a situation where there are several worlds within jump-1 of each other; carrying enough fuel for a double jump-2 makes a ship pretty useless for any cargo-related purpose, even hauling high-value illegals...

 

[F33D]

True if you're only talking about someone inbound to the world's lowport; realistically your patrol region of interest is a cone with the apex at the downport and the 'face' at the 100D jump perimeter.

If they are inbound they will land. No need for a ship obviously. It is IF you F-up and don't spot them that you need that one ship (YES I know there will be one or two others not deployed) patrolling to intercept if they try to run. When I say ONE, I mean on patrol. You don't patrol near the downport as the planet has defenses that can fry a smuggler. Same with near the UP Port.

 

[rust]

In my settings most developed planets have at least some armed satellites in orbit.
Therefore a ship follows the official flight corridor and lands where ground control
tells them to land (and where the customs officials are waiting to inspect the ship)
or is treated as a hostile intruder and dealt with by the defense satellites. No need
for an expensive SDB to handle smuggling.

 

[Condottiere]

For smuggling it's probably drops and hand offs, since a scheduled flight is a lot less suspicious, unless the planet has poor sensors, there are sensor blindspots, or flight control has somehow been got at.

 

[phavoc]

I'd think there would be a number of traffic control/scan sats in orbit. Some defense sats, but unless they were in a position to be attacked with no warning, most would probably sit on a station or a warehouse simply because its far cheaper to do that than deploy them and then have to pay the maintenance costs.

Custom enforcement and checking on ships would be done using smaller ships. There'd be a couple of real warships nearby, or at least positioned to rapidly intercept anyone stupid enough to fire on a customs cutter. Or some fighters that could be scrambled quickly. For smaller ships, they can't hope to outrun a fighter, and they would be quite deadly to a standard PC starship. I don't let anyone run around in armor level 15 unless they are military or have Imperial letters. It's like when playing D&D, and characters always wanted to wear their plate mail everywhere in town... it attracts too much attention and town guards don't like it, so they don't let it happen. I would think planets would do the same. PC ships armed with 50 ton weapons bay and they don't work for a planetary government would never be allowed anywhere near a station or someplace they could cause problems with that sort of weaponry.

 

[F33D]

I'd think there would be a number of traffic control/scan sats in orbit. Some defense sats, but unless they were in a position to be attacked with no warning, most would probably sit on a station or a warehouse simply because its far cheaper to do that than deploy them and then have to pay the maintenance costs.

If you are not deep in settled area, you keep them deployed. You only have a few hours notice if you are invaded. Too short of a period to drag them out of storage, test, and deploy.