Scouts Book from Mongoose ?

[Infojunky]

First off I think I know you point of view on this Klaus, and our time would be better spent detailing and/or working on specifics issues with one system rather than our current vector of conversation. i.e. agree to disagree about the validity of UWP.

From the provided data I can infer reams of socioeconomic data, that tells me kinda what to expect as a casual traveller passing through the port. what it doesn't give me is detailed analysis of the place. And that is what I believe you are asking for.

You can, or you can just make it up, since that's what you're doing anyway. 2 folk look at the same UWP can get totally different and contradictory socioeconomic data, and most of the time do. How is that helpful? If the inferences aren't even slightly consistent, then it's not really useful at all.

I don't know if you could say Contradictory, different yes, contradictory no, in that I presume we start from the same basic data. I don't see this as the world ending flaw that you seem to be making of it.

I really comes down to how we interpret the data given and where we go from there.

I want a playable sector. I don't want to fork out cash, and then have to do most of the work myself.

A decent amount of detail: some very detailed worlds, some less so, only a paragraph, some maybe just a line or two. The rest? No UWP, just a location - if I've got to fill in the rest at least give me carte blanche.

But, as you say have carte Blanche with or without UWPs, This is another point where I pretty sure we have wildly differing opinions.

How much time? A lot.... Something I have actually done (in collaboration), and which you will be able to peruse sometime this year.... The UWPs were annoying and quite literally the least enjoyable part of the process, stifling creativity and boring me senseless. The rest of the endeavour has been a lot of fun. Though doing someone else's accounts is more fun than wrangling UWPs.

Again YMMV,

The UWP is woefully inadequate as even a planetary sketch. Not enough data to be useful, too much to allow proper creativity.

Ok your going to have to define in detail what "proper creativity" is. I'm not sure we agree in our definitions of creativity. UWPs generally provide me with a host of ideas for each and every unique one I run across.

And to address one of the problems you mentioned in an earlier post looking for a system with particular statistics in a sector, UWP is machine sortable as it is expressed in finite variables while your "natural" language only system makes searches like you described much more difficult as one would have to search for every conceivable combination of words the describe the conditions one is looking for.

So, Klaus, I take it you only use preprinted material for your game?

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Well my main point is that generating UWPs is an awful lot of trouble to go to to get such minimal information. Basically, it's inefficient.

And incomplete.

There's got to simpler ways to get what amount to simple adventure hooks.

I dislike GURPS as a system, but the GT planetary stat block is much more user friendly than a UWP. I can photocopy that and hand it to a player. Not so the UWP. I have to spend time preparing that information.

I purchase play aids to save me time, not for it to ask me to fill in 90% of the info.

Before GT came along, how many sector books were anything more than pages of number strings?

Since then, no one's released a sector/subsector/cluster book without all the 'colour' that the UWP doesn't supply. So yes, I can use stuff by QLI and Avenger, or stuff from Stellar Reaches, as published, if I want (and I have).

The Spinward Marches only really came alive (apart from the bits detailed in adventures or JTAS) with BTC. Of course I embellish it in my games, add the colour I'm interested in, but luckily, since the same author has written MGT SM, MTU will still closely resemble the OTU.

But if I do come up with my own stuff, it seems perverse to reduce that colour I've come up with to a handful of mute numbers, just so I can share it with fellow Travellers. (Not sure where I'd put it, as damn near the whole 3I been's filled in ever so faintly in the last 30 years).

Basically though, and back to thread title, if and when a Scouts book comes out, I hope it includes sensible extras that address the stuff that I think the UWP lacks, to make the exercise worthwhile (and has a different way to generate systems than the totally broken book 6 way).

And I hope it is closely based on realistic (or none unrealistic) premises, a baseline that can be justified to anyone, else the JDTU, SSTTU, and the SDTU will look just like the OTU.

A query, which would you prefer, as in pay for first? A book with 16 subsectors as pure UWP, or a book with one subsector in glorious detail?

 

[captainjack23]

Well my main point is that generating UWPs is an awful lot of trouble to go to to get such minimal information. Basically, it's inefficient.

And incomplete.

There's got to simpler ways to get what amount to simple adventure hooks.

[snip]

A query, which would you prefer, as in pay for first? A book with 16 subsectors as pure UWP, or a book with one subsector in glorious detail?

I suppose this can go on incessantly. Really, if you don't use the UWP, you really have no need to complain about it. Some of us do, and find it very useful. If you want a more fleshed out system, there are 40-jillion free versions on the net, as well as published ones in CT, MT, T4 and TNE, as well as GT; plus lots of third party productions. There are also advanced combat and ship building systems. The core rules don't need the depth if they are to be the foundation.

If you want to share your work, do it as in BTC rather than as a UWP string- whoever said that a UWP is the ONLY POSSIBLE INTERCHANGE FORMAT ALLOWED IN THE WHOLE WORLD ?

I think you are once again overstating the frequency of the problem - as you say, no one has produced books of number strings since GT - so, then, the problem should be solved from your position. And honestly, the most obvious offenders as regards UWP printout catalogues - First survey (t4) and the Atlas (CT) - were about the only examples - even the LBB spinward & solomani books had background info. And lots of third party stuff had that level of detail and more - even back then (CT era) - so don't act like every product has always been a meaningless string of numbers. I am unaware that any forthcoming product is "16 subsectors worth of UWP's instead of a subsector in glorious detail. "; nor has there been one for - ten ? Fifteen years ? When did first survey come out and flop ? 1994 ? So, chill.

And if you want simpler ? rolling 2d6 six times is too complicated ? I suppose RSP or a coin flip is simpler......or, dare I say it - there's some great third party generic SF RPG supplements (101 worlds IIRC is a corker) and....well, that should save you some time. you know...as they are already written up ?


It seems that the main thrust of your argument is that you don't like the UWP, you don't use it, and its mere existence is somehow stifling to creativivty; so it shouldn't exist, and so be unavailable for those who do use it. This despite you admitting that there are lots of well fleshed out systems and sectors for you to use. Seems a bit....self-indulgent put that way. Is that really your point ?

 

[tneva82]

And if, to produce that capsule, you have to make up most of the info, then the UWP is not doing it's job.

And where you got the idea UWP's job is complete overview anyway? You can't fill complete information into short space. UWP's job is to provide rough overview of the planet in short space. Nothing more. And it does that job. Therefore UWP IS doing it's job.

If you are trying to apply new jobs to UWP then no wonder it doesn't do them...It never was meant to do them. Don't blame UWP for asking it to do something it wasn't designed to do.

 

[Infojunky]

Ok, So what do you want to see in scouts?[/list]

 

[-Daniel-]

Ok, So what do you want to see in scouts?[/list]

I would like to see a small section that discusses how a Scout based game may differ from other types. This would be helpful to those who are newer to Traveller IMO.

Daniel

 

[rje]

Ok, So what do you want to see in scouts?

I'd like a suggested "world writeup" format: give me useful clues about how to describe a world in three pages. How to divide up categories of information (planet characteristics, flora and fauna, demographics, and history?) and how to balance them -- which are the most important, and which are less important.

Or maybe how to weight importance based on the type of campaign being run, even -- after all Scouts are about exploration as well as census, and perhaps a bit of diplomacy and infiltration as well.

So on Exploration adventures, perhaps world data should be organized differently than on Diplomatic ("peace negotiations") adventures. The world writeup is a resource but also supplies information to the players in a certain way, or even a certain order, based on the nature of the adventure.

 

[Infojunky]

So, What I am hearing is a new version of Worldbuilders. Which is one of the few DGP books that I really liked.

The physical section probably could just be a update of Scouts, there was a trend of adding more complexity with each iteration culmination with GURPS:Traveller First In. Which is a good book, but complex.

In fact this is one of the reasons I believe that there should be some sort of software to aid in generating physical details of a system.

 

[rje]

So, What I am hearing is a new version of Worldbuilders.

A new version of worldbuilder, yes, but a version with an eye turned towards the game rather than data.

In other words, when David Smart gives us a handout with world details, I'd like to see:

A. a general overview, one page (maybe two) with broad sketches familiarising us with:
1. the UWP as it applies to this world (and implications)
2. the solar system
3. flora and fauna
4. the starport and cities
5. demographics
6. history

B. Maps, zero to three pages containing:
1. a world map, possibly.
2. a starport map, possibly.
3. a city map, possibly (??)

C. One or more pages of Library Data about the world, containing proper names, companies, critters, and historical milestone entries. These entries represent deeper and narrower topics than the general overview above.

That's a tall order. Perhaps if helpful hints and methods and resources can be supplied in a Scouts book, then the task would be easier.

 

[-Daniel-]

So, What I am hearing is a new version of Worldbuilders.

A new version of worldbuilder, yes, but a version with an eye turned towards the game rather than data.

In other words, when David Smart gives us a handout with world details, I'd like to see:

A. a general overview, one page (maybe two) with broad sketches familiarising us with:
1. the UWP as it applies to this world (and implications)
2. the solar system
3. flora and fauna
4. the starport and cities
5. demographics
6. history

B. Maps, zero to three pages containing:
1. a world map, possibly.
2. a starport map, possibly.
3. a city map, possibly (??)

C. One or more pages of Library Data about the world, containing proper names, companies, critters, and historical milestone entries. These entries represent deeper and narrower topics than the general overview above.

That's a tall order. Perhaps if helpful hints and methods and resources can be supplied in a Scouts book, then the task would be easier.

This is not just a tall order, this is a daydream. I do not have the time nor energy to make something like this for the players for every system they happen to jump to. Unless I knew they were going to stay and spend a lot of time there, this is just a waste of my time. Even if most of this was generatable from a book(s) it still would take time.

Fo rme, I want a simple explination/discription so that I could answer simple questions. Then, and only when, the players remain in system for a period would I want the kind of indepth system to share with them.

Daniel

 

[rje]

I do not have the time nor energy to make something like this for the players for every system they happen to jump to. Unless I knew they were going to stay and spend a lot of time there, this is just a waste of my time.

No arguments there. It is to your second point that my post was addressed. When I know the players are going to stay there, it would be helpful to have guidelines, resources, tables, whatnot, to help me compose the brief from my previous post.

Fo rme, I want a simple explination/discription so that I could answer simple questions. Then, and only when, the players remain in system for a period would I want the kind of indepth system to share with them.

I suspect you have some category of general questions in mind. A reference can probably help there, too.

 

[-Daniel-]

I do not have the time nor energy to make something like this for the players for every system they happen to jump to. Unless I knew they were going to stay and spend a lot of time there, this is just a waste of my time.

No arguments there. It is to your second point that my post was addressed. When I know the players are going to stay there, it would be helpful to have guidelines, resources, tables, whatnot, to help me compose the brief from my previous post.

Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying you wanted a product that would do this for "every" world generated from it. My bad. Yes, once I believe we are going to stick around then diving deeper into what is in the system and the level of effort needed is worth it. At that point having various tables to help would be worth it.

So maybe what we need is a system that allows the GM to "break" from the process at various points along the detail path based on need. So a “Fuel Stop” might roll up a basic UWP and stop. A visit for one adventure might have the UWP and roll for info from tables 1-3. But if you want the full treatment for a system then it rolls on tables 1-9 plus the UWP, plus additional details found in Appendix X.

Just a thought.

Daniel

 

[Klaus Kipling]

I guess I've been playing devil's advocate somewhat.

I don't 'hate' the UWP, I just think it is inadequate. It needs extra factors.

The problem has been, and I think this has been an issue over the whole of Traveller, that the explicit, published, info, is canon, and the rest is just IMTU (Iguess this stems from my slight feeling disappiontment that most of the iterations of Trav after CT haven't embellished, added to, the info beyond what was already established, GT and onwards notwithstanding). Obviously that is fair enough; it's just that, regarding UWP, there tends to be a fixation on the factors it represents. They are given weight that other, possibly more significant, factors don't, and therefore get somewhat sidelined. That is, if the rules don't cover it, they are seen as less important. And, these other factors get less commentary.

What I'd like to see in a 'Scouts' book is a full evaluation of the useful factors of a 'world', whether it gets included in the UWP or not. The ambition should be to examine all the important factors. The UWP has emphasised certain things, and they have correspondingly got more attention.

For example, T20 looked at other areas like biosphere, wealth, and whatnot, but this never appeared in 'stuff', whether official or fan created. This other 'stuff' needs to be given equal weight if the world building system is to be truly comprehensive. Baselining at UWP factors lends to a tendency for only those factors to be given importance, because they're the only factors that get measured.

My own humble opinion is that it would be better to abandon the UWP for a better form of notation that really expressed the main useful characteristics of a 'world'. That that might be an unpopular solution among old or near old timers is understood. I just think it is worth considering, if only as a thought experiment (given that MGT has to fit the existent OTU and whatever other conditions might be in the license).

If we were to try and reform the UWP. how would we do it?

 

[Infojunky]

My own humble opinion is that it would be better to abandon the UWP for a better form of notation that really expressed the main useful characteristics of a 'world'. That that might be an unpopular solution among old or near old timers is understood. I just think it is worth considering, if only as a thought experiment (given that MGT has to fit the existent OTU and whatever other conditions might be in the license).

Go for it Klaus, oh and include the search engine while your at it.

Flipping through GT:Rim of Fire today, it neat from the oh look detail POV. But it sucks from the navigation point of view, if I wanted to plot a trip over multiple jumps that covered two or three sub-sectors, I was stuck flipping back and forth through the book just to find the maps. Oh and hidden in each section was the direct equivalent of a UWP list. But it was in Gurps terms not UWP.....

So how is this book better again? It would have been better presented with the sub-sectors and minimal data in front with all the individual worlds specifics in the library data in the back. The lack of a key for each of the hidden maps was a major flaw as well.

 

[zozotroll]

A lot depends so much on what type of game you are playing. I have certainly played in games where I could not have cared less about the planet, I only went to the port. All I was interested in was what sold well, and what was available cheap. In those games old style UWP worked just fine, and the map was used a lot.

But when I played a mercenary game, I needed a lot more, but I certainly spent a lot more time on one planet, and not just at the port.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

So how is this book better again? It would have been better presented with the sub-sectors and minimal data in front with all the individual worlds specifics in the library data in the back. The lack of a key for each of the hidden maps was a major flaw as well.

Well I don't like GURPS, and yes it's a liitle awkward converting GT port classes and tech levels to 'regular', but that's a system thing, not a conceptual one.

You have exactly the same problems flipping through the original SM supplement. I'm not going to argue about layout, because that's beside the point. It could have been laid out better, but it doesn't alter the fact that the info it contains is superior.

I just don't understand how less detail is better than more.

 

[Loz]

Ok, So what do you want to see in scouts?[/list]

I would like to see a small section that discusses how a Scout based game may differ from other types. This would be helpful to those who are newer to Traveller IMO.

Daniel

Scouts is on my 2Do list. I think your request at the top will be an important part of the book, considering the unique position scouts have.

 

[Gruffty the Hiver]

it's a liitle awkward converting GT port classes and tech levels to 'regular',

Nah it's not. Just use a spreadshite to change starport "V" or "A" or whatever.

 

[Ishmael]

I guess I'll stay quiet.
I've already said my opinion a couple of times and somewhere, my idea of a way to make it better without changing the format from what's already gone before.

the problem for me is how the population and social related things are handled...the phyical is fine as it is ( well..let "taint" be in the write-up and use the 'atm' stat as proportional to sea level pressure )

 

[-Daniel-]

While I love the whole "world creation" thing, I have to say I hope the book is not just that. I hope the rest of the scout duty also has some space in the book. Real military scouting, X-Boat, survey, currier services, etc. There needs to be info on all of those areas IMO.

The scouts have always been so much more then just “Oh look, another gas giant system. Mark it down”. If it is something I can do or have happen to me in the Character creation system then it needs some coverage in the Scout book.

Just my .02 credits worth.

Daniel