Salvage rights
- Thread starter Ranger66
- Start date
Perturbatio
Mongoose
I haven't read the centauri book cover to cover so I don't know either, but knowing the centauri, either they will lay claim to it if there is anything important on it, or they will have a salvage tax "to cover administration costs".
If you involve the Centauri authorities, it'll cost you. Unless it was something they'd lost and were looking for it, you'll probably not even get a finders' fee.
To my mind, the salvage laws will be, unless some one catches you doing it, it's yours
If it's a Centauri ship, I'd tread carefully (though IPX or the Narn would probably make it worth your while...).
To my mind, the salvage laws will be, unless some one catches you doing it, it's yours
If it's a Centauri ship, I'd tread carefully (though IPX or the Narn would probably make it worth your while...).Aramanthus
Mongoose
That's true. But maybe it's just something they don't want. It is up to you, the Gm. I'd say a tax would definately cover the problem. Although maybe you could put something precious that some culture lost. It would make an interestin story line in an arc.
Aramanthus
Mongoose
You're welcome!
frobisher said:If you involve the Centauri authorities, it'll cost you. Unless it was something they'd lost and were looking for it, you'll probably not even get a finders' fee.
To my mind, the salvage laws will be, unless some one catches you doing it, it's yours
I agree with Frobisher.
I would like to ask for more info:
1. What kind of ship is it? Military, Merchant, Passenger, etc.?
2. Where did they find it? Well within Centauri space, outside, etc.?
3. Condition of the ship? Is the ship useable, is it scrap metal, can you salvage any of the parts, etc.
4. What is the condition of the "Galaxy" when the ship is found? Are the Centauri at war, are they giving guided tours for Humans, etc.
Depending on any of the above would make a big difference in how to play that. How generous do you want to be to the players is another question? Do they need a ship as a plot vehicle to get them to places your campain needs to take them? If that is the case, then the Centauri official can be bribed to allow them to keep the ship for the cost of an "Administration fee".
A
Anonymous
Guest
Ranger66 said:
Assuming no one come along during the salvage, possession is 9/10ths of the law. :wink:
Should some upstanding members of the greater Centauri military I arrive on the scene, I would guess that the right amount of credits placed in the right hands will suffice. That is assuming that the greater Centauri Empire isn't there to salvage the vessel itself. The amount of credits or whether the Centauri choose to look the other way could be contingent on whether one of the players is a Centauri, and what his social status is.
Mr Dimbleby
Mongoose
Anonymous said:
I probably should have logged in before posting. :lol:
A little off-topic....
In the last session I ran, the party recovered an IPX research vessel, and decided to claim salvage rights. However, in the end they gave it back to IPX since it was registered with them but claimed 10% of value as finders fee.
Would this be about right?
Also, if the ship was owned by someone (Private individual or corporation...etc) and as such could be traced to them as owners, what realisiticlly could the players do legally?
In the last session I ran, the party recovered an IPX research vessel, and decided to claim salvage rights. However, in the end they gave it back to IPX since it was registered with them but claimed 10% of value as finders fee.
Would this be about right?
Also, if the ship was owned by someone (Private individual or corporation...etc) and as such could be traced to them as owners, what realisiticlly could the players do legally?
ShadowScout
Mongoose
Smart players (or devious GM's) should also think about the implications.
Remember real-world legality - in most countries, if you find something that might possibly belong to someone else, you have to report your find to the police. If you don't, and take it, it's theft.
If the owner can be determined, the found thing is returned, and in most countries a finder's fee can be demanded.
If noone comes forward to claim the found object, it will probably be auctioned off by the authorities - usually in such cases no finder's fee applies.
If you do take it, you can never know if some day the police will show up to have words with you about that thing (for example, the guy who found a necklace and just gave it to his girlfriend got in trouble when she brought it to the jeweler to fix the catch, and it was recognized from the description of stolen goods, and he then had to explain to a judge that he just wasn't thinking and didn't really mean to commit a crime... etc. Once in a while you hear about things like that)
Soo - if you find a car in a ditch next to the road, with the driver dead in it, what would happen if you just hid the corpse and took the car for your own? The drivers wife (or whatever) would report him and the car missing, sooner or later a cop would check the license plates, note that car is listed "missing" and stop you to check you out. And as soon as he sees your ID he'll notice you arent the driver who's also missing, and suspect the worst. - Similar in B5.
For example, if a ship disappears in space, and some time later a group of people show up in possession of said (still registered to it's previous owners) ship, well, piracy comes to mind... and as soon as they dock at some government station where someone can and will check their ship's registry, the players will certainly be arrested (possession of a stolen spaceship, suspicion of piracy and murder).
And that's only the authorities - you can never know who else might come after you because they think you might be the one who is responsible for the ship's disappereance ("hey, Don Machelli, our missing courier showed up again... but without our people and without our goods..." "Is dat so? Ju know wad to do, si? Find de ones hu did id...") Several movies come to mind here that could be used as inspiration...
Of course, there are things some "morally challenged" players can do to avoid at least the official entaglements... docking on certain space stations where noone would bother to check their ship's ID... and eventually get a forged ID (I assume that would mean getting 1; a new ship ID beacon to fix the problem of a casual scan by a passing warship, 2; forged ship registry documents to show a boarding party, and once you can afford it - 3; paying a lot of money to some corrupt government official somewhere in known space to have him enter your newly installed beacon signal into the registry database of his government to fix the problem of getting caught when docking to a governmant space station where they have the means to validate your becaon's authenticity - non-forged ship documents included)...
That would fix the basic problems of having a stolen ship, though on a very good search some inspector might note hull and engine numbers (or the fact that someone filed them off, which in itself is suspicious enough to warrant a forensic scan which would again turn up the real identity of your ship). Also a determined database expert might follow the history of your ship and again find something suspicious enough to crack your false ID...
Another possibility is selling the salvaged ship (whole or in parts) off to someone who doesn't ask questions. Look at the car example above to get an idea of the possible snags with this one - if you sell it to would-be pirates, and they get caught, guess who they'll rat out as their ship dealer? Same for "used equipment dealers" - if they get in trouble with the law over this, they will most likely squeal on you.
Government R&D sections on the other hand are pretty safe - IF they are interested in your find. After all, they certainly won't tell anyone the truth, and deny everything on general principles. But that's only for official trouble again - inofficial trouble might not bother with evidence when they can bribe the right official for proof...
But all that's assuming noone sees you doing the salvage - if at any point you are caught by a government ship trying to salvage a derelict vessel without having notified the government - well, as with the car example above, you would have some explaining to do. Or some bribing, especially in centauri space (size of the bribe dependent on how important the salvaged ship is - a centauri patrol captain will be happy to look the other way for a small gift if it's a wrecked old scow, but if it was a modern centauri warship it would probably cost you more than you could afford - or gain from the salvage. And in that case, you might have to pay a hefty bribe just so he'll forget your faces when reporting "his" discovery of the lost vessel)
On the other hand, if the players report their finding of said ship as soon as they find it, the authorities will certainly investigate. And if they (or the players) find enough evidence to reconstruct that the players weren't the ones responsible for the demise of it's former crew, then they will see the ship goes to the inheritors of the owners. In that case, a "finders fee" could be claimed by the players.
Depending on the total value of the ship in question, and the government involved (and the GM's wishes) from 10% to 1% (the bigger and more valuable the ship, the less percentage you'll get).
Alternately (especially if the owners are still around - for example when the ship is owned by a corporation or government organization) the reward for recovering it won't be percentage, but a fixed "salvage fee", reimbusement for their troubles. GM's decision (for now...)
And taxes... well certainly! Most governments will be happy to tax whatever they can (and so give an GM more of a chance to lower the players income from salvage)
Hmmm... maybe some guy at Mongoose should think about a small article in S&P about salvage rights for all the different alien governments... (BtW, if it's a Llort ship, it's "finders, keepers"... but you have to expect some kin of the former ship owner coming after you to try and steal it back!)
Remember real-world legality - in most countries, if you find something that might possibly belong to someone else, you have to report your find to the police. If you don't, and take it, it's theft.
If the owner can be determined, the found thing is returned, and in most countries a finder's fee can be demanded.
If noone comes forward to claim the found object, it will probably be auctioned off by the authorities - usually in such cases no finder's fee applies.
If you do take it, you can never know if some day the police will show up to have words with you about that thing (for example, the guy who found a necklace and just gave it to his girlfriend got in trouble when she brought it to the jeweler to fix the catch, and it was recognized from the description of stolen goods, and he then had to explain to a judge that he just wasn't thinking and didn't really mean to commit a crime... etc. Once in a while you hear about things like that)
Soo - if you find a car in a ditch next to the road, with the driver dead in it, what would happen if you just hid the corpse and took the car for your own? The drivers wife (or whatever) would report him and the car missing, sooner or later a cop would check the license plates, note that car is listed "missing" and stop you to check you out. And as soon as he sees your ID he'll notice you arent the driver who's also missing, and suspect the worst. - Similar in B5.
For example, if a ship disappears in space, and some time later a group of people show up in possession of said (still registered to it's previous owners) ship, well, piracy comes to mind... and as soon as they dock at some government station where someone can and will check their ship's registry, the players will certainly be arrested (possession of a stolen spaceship, suspicion of piracy and murder).
And that's only the authorities - you can never know who else might come after you because they think you might be the one who is responsible for the ship's disappereance ("hey, Don Machelli, our missing courier showed up again... but without our people and without our goods..." "Is dat so? Ju know wad to do, si? Find de ones hu did id...") Several movies come to mind here that could be used as inspiration...
Of course, there are things some "morally challenged" players can do to avoid at least the official entaglements... docking on certain space stations where noone would bother to check their ship's ID... and eventually get a forged ID (I assume that would mean getting 1; a new ship ID beacon to fix the problem of a casual scan by a passing warship, 2; forged ship registry documents to show a boarding party, and once you can afford it - 3; paying a lot of money to some corrupt government official somewhere in known space to have him enter your newly installed beacon signal into the registry database of his government to fix the problem of getting caught when docking to a governmant space station where they have the means to validate your becaon's authenticity - non-forged ship documents included)...
That would fix the basic problems of having a stolen ship, though on a very good search some inspector might note hull and engine numbers (or the fact that someone filed them off, which in itself is suspicious enough to warrant a forensic scan which would again turn up the real identity of your ship). Also a determined database expert might follow the history of your ship and again find something suspicious enough to crack your false ID...
Another possibility is selling the salvaged ship (whole or in parts) off to someone who doesn't ask questions. Look at the car example above to get an idea of the possible snags with this one - if you sell it to would-be pirates, and they get caught, guess who they'll rat out as their ship dealer? Same for "used equipment dealers" - if they get in trouble with the law over this, they will most likely squeal on you.
Government R&D sections on the other hand are pretty safe - IF they are interested in your find. After all, they certainly won't tell anyone the truth, and deny everything on general principles. But that's only for official trouble again - inofficial trouble might not bother with evidence when they can bribe the right official for proof...
But all that's assuming noone sees you doing the salvage - if at any point you are caught by a government ship trying to salvage a derelict vessel without having notified the government - well, as with the car example above, you would have some explaining to do. Or some bribing, especially in centauri space (size of the bribe dependent on how important the salvaged ship is - a centauri patrol captain will be happy to look the other way for a small gift if it's a wrecked old scow, but if it was a modern centauri warship it would probably cost you more than you could afford - or gain from the salvage. And in that case, you might have to pay a hefty bribe just so he'll forget your faces when reporting "his" discovery of the lost vessel)
On the other hand, if the players report their finding of said ship as soon as they find it, the authorities will certainly investigate. And if they (or the players) find enough evidence to reconstruct that the players weren't the ones responsible for the demise of it's former crew, then they will see the ship goes to the inheritors of the owners. In that case, a "finders fee" could be claimed by the players.
Depending on the total value of the ship in question, and the government involved (and the GM's wishes) from 10% to 1% (the bigger and more valuable the ship, the less percentage you'll get).
Alternately (especially if the owners are still around - for example when the ship is owned by a corporation or government organization) the reward for recovering it won't be percentage, but a fixed "salvage fee", reimbusement for their troubles. GM's decision (for now...)
And taxes... well certainly! Most governments will be happy to tax whatever they can (and so give an GM more of a chance to lower the players income from salvage)
Hmmm... maybe some guy at Mongoose should think about a small article in S&P about salvage rights for all the different alien governments... (BtW, if it's a Llort ship, it's "finders, keepers"... but you have to expect some kin of the former ship owner coming after you to try and steal it back!)
Of course if they took scans before during and after of the ship, that could be used as evidence that they did not attack the ship.
I know that the basic question here for him is, what are the salvage laws. On our world there are International Maritime Law and it is clear what is involved, or is it.
I know a guy that does salvage for a living and he is licensed in both US and International salvage operations. In order to do that, you have to know the salvage laws. He found a 1945 US Navy Corsair that had gone down in International waters. The US Navy knew where the plane had gone down and once a year would check up on the status of the plane. This guy found it scuba diving and recovered the plane. He stored it overnight in a farmers barn until he was able to get a truck to pick it up. The US Navy was able to track the plane to the barn and then to him and filed charges for stealing US property. He fought and was able to show that there was nothing in any of the Salvage Laws that proved he had commited a crime. The courts did decide that he could not keep the plane, however he could bill the US Navy for salvaging the plane. He wanted to keep the plane and just pay for it.
So maybe the characters could turn it in for salvage and with the reward money, upgrade their own ship.
I know that the basic question here for him is, what are the salvage laws. On our world there are International Maritime Law and it is clear what is involved, or is it.
I know a guy that does salvage for a living and he is licensed in both US and International salvage operations. In order to do that, you have to know the salvage laws. He found a 1945 US Navy Corsair that had gone down in International waters. The US Navy knew where the plane had gone down and once a year would check up on the status of the plane. This guy found it scuba diving and recovered the plane. He stored it overnight in a farmers barn until he was able to get a truck to pick it up. The US Navy was able to track the plane to the barn and then to him and filed charges for stealing US property. He fought and was able to show that there was nothing in any of the Salvage Laws that proved he had commited a crime. The courts did decide that he could not keep the plane, however he could bill the US Navy for salvaging the plane. He wanted to keep the plane and just pay for it.
So maybe the characters could turn it in for salvage and with the reward money, upgrade their own ship.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
I heard a story once, might just be an urban legend. About a RN Harrier that lost it's carrier and was forced to land (rather squintily) half on the deckhouse of a merchant vessel. The pilot got out, introduced himself to the captain yadda yadda.
When it got into port the captain slapped the navy with a massive recovery bill. Well where else you going to find a tow truck in the middle of the ocean?
Dunno if it's true but it is funny.
LBH
When it got into port the captain slapped the navy with a massive recovery bill. Well where else you going to find a tow truck in the middle of the ocean?
Dunno if it's true but it is funny.
LBH
One would assume that the treaties between most major governments (and most likely counting the League Worlds as having signed en masse) make appropriate allowances for the protection of technology, and that this would cover salvage situations in a similar manner to the US aircraft above. No government would want to risk their most secret technologies being investigated by their enemies, to the point that they would in most cases happily make mutual arrangements to that effect. That said, most would also do their best to inconspiciously break said agreement if possible
These agreements most likely differentiate between civilian and military vessels - civilian vessels are probably open game for salvage if found unattended, while a military vessel would have to be offered back to it's home government in return for a "reasonable salvage fee" - most likely a fraction of what anyone else would be prepared to pay for it.
Of course, it's difficult to enforce these agreements because by their very nature, the unattended vessels are... unattended The best bet if you want to get a decent fee from a military vessel would be to attempt a black market sale to raiders. If you had contacts in an alien government you could feasibly negotiate for a nice fee from their intelligence agency, but would have to guarantee untracability (and they would have to trust you enough to risk the inevitable diplomatic incident if the deal were discovered). Simply hanging onto a military vessel is only going to attract the ire of the respective government - and being in violation of galactic law your own government would be powerless to protect you. You take a Centauri military vessel, and the Centauri have every right to hunt you down. Flee to Minbari space, and they'll probably treat you as a criminal and extradite you to the Centauri for prosecution.
These agreements most likely differentiate between civilian and military vessels - civilian vessels are probably open game for salvage if found unattended, while a military vessel would have to be offered back to it's home government in return for a "reasonable salvage fee" - most likely a fraction of what anyone else would be prepared to pay for it.
Of course, it's difficult to enforce these agreements because by their very nature, the unattended vessels are... unattended
The best bet if you want to get a decent fee from a military vessel would be to attempt a black market sale to raiders. If you had contacts in an alien government you could feasibly negotiate for a nice fee from their intelligence agency, but would have to guarantee untracability (and they would have to trust you enough to risk the inevitable diplomatic incident if the deal were discovered). Simply hanging onto a military vessel is only going to attract the ire of the respective government - and being in violation of galactic law your own government would be powerless to protect you. You take a Centauri military vessel, and the Centauri have every right to hunt you down. Flee to Minbari space, and they'll probably treat you as a criminal and extradite you to the Centauri for prosecution.Centauri Merchant
Found close to the edge of Centauri space. Relativly speaking.
Ship pretty much blasted up but the hull etc was still intact.
The adventure is set just before the very 1st episode of Season 1
<would like to ask for more info:
1. What kind of ship is it? Military, Merchant, Passenger, etc.?
2. Where did they find it? Well within Centauri space, outside, etc.?
3. Condition of the ship? Is the ship useable, is it scrap metal, can you salvage any of the parts, etc.
4. What is the condition of the "Galaxy" when the ship is found? Are the Centauri at war, are they giving guided tours for Humans, etc. >
Found close to the edge of Centauri space. Relativly speaking.
Ship pretty much blasted up but the hull etc was still intact.
The adventure is set just before the very 1st episode of Season 1
<would like to ask for more info:
1. What kind of ship is it? Military, Merchant, Passenger, etc.?
2. Where did they find it? Well within Centauri space, outside, etc.?
3. Condition of the ship? Is the ship useable, is it scrap metal, can you salvage any of the parts, etc.
4. What is the condition of the "Galaxy" when the ship is found? Are the Centauri at war, are they giving guided tours for Humans, etc. >
Ranger66 said:
Okay, quoting some excerpts from the International Convention on Salvage, 1989 - it's fairly logical to assume that a galactic-wide treaty wouldn't be much different to this.
So as I guessed above, Warships would not be covered by salvage laws. However, yours is a merchant vessel and is therefore "fair game".
Just because you found it, it isn't automatically yours
You have to enter a salvage contract with the owner (or captain) of the vessel. The reward for salvage is fixed at this time.As soon as you arrive at any kind of docking facility, you have to leave the salvage there.
Basically, salvage laws allow you to claim compensation from the original owner. Nothing more.
However, the Law of Finds is a little different, and is most likely what your players are thinking of.
Under this law, title is given to the person who finds and takes possession of the property. However, this law only applies when no owner exists, or can be determined. As this is a registered vessel, the chances are the original owner can be located.
The correct procedure to follow in this case is:
a) Contact the Centauri vessel registry to obtain the owner's contact details (they may charge a small service fee for this)
b) Contact the owner, and make an offer to salvage their ship or items from within. Contract negotiation is between the salvor (the players), and the owner. Stricting speaking, they could alternatively enter into this contract with the master (captain) of the vessel.
c) Perform salvage operations. Remove either the complete vessel, its contents, or specific contents to a port. Obtain storage facilities for these.
d) Owner comes to collect, and pays agreed fee plus storage bill.
