Salvage rights and procedures

Blefuscu

Mongoose
Any speculations or suggestions for the following situation would be much appreciated:

Combat between two ships results in one losing it's crew. What would be the procedure for claiming salvage of the vessel left crewless if this vessel were undocumented (having been whiped from official records for whatever reason: pirates; corporate or governmental black ops; etc)?

Much thanks in advance!
 
In a situation with no declared war, no Letter of Marque on the victor, and no "papers" on the loser, salvage or scuttle are the two most likely results, and you'd better have good logs of the fight if you want to convince the Portmaster that you aren't a pirate yourself.
 
Most likely, the ship would need to be impounded and condemned as salvage in a maritime (Astratime ?) court. Depending on local law, and what you have for imperial, it may be held for an ownership search -which would probably take a long time.

If you swipe it, or seize it, and it turns out to be stolen, the legal tangles get horrendous. Remember : self defense does not justify theft.

Best bet: Document the attack. Log it as "contact broken by hostile ship after significant damage". Go home. Call the cops and the insurance company.

Second best. Strip and scuttle. Doctor logs. This never happened. Go away, stay away. Do not take the ship. Ships get traced, and often turn out to have the darnedest people as co-owners.
 
captainjack23 said:
...it may be held for an ownership search -which would probably take a long time...

Given enough time and considering the distributed nature of stellar civilisations, it is a near-certainty that the owner would be traced. It's going to be impossible to remove all record of the ship. You might be able to engineer its registering as lost or scrapped or the like, but unless it was a custom job, it's going to be identifiable as a certain hull, with close inspection, and from there it's just a matter of following the trail til it stops. *How* it stops will determine the authorities' reaction.

If an insurance company paid out on it, it's their property now, and they might institute fraud proceedings against the owner who "lost" the ship. They might consider a salvage payment (small percentage of value, though with so much combat damage that the crew are all dead, that might be the *scrap* value).
 
First my credentials (grin). Been playing and running Traveller for over 20 years, and have both played and ran scenes of this nature.

The main issue here is that there is a major difference between finding a derelict ship and claiming it as your own (Salvage) and being attacked by a ship and claiming it as your own after beating off the attack (Trophy).


In a Salvage situation - the ship is just there. You found it in orbit around a distant gas giant and all the people are dead. Or perhaps you found it buried under ice on a random planet that you were exploring. Or perhaps you were skimming a gas giant and found it within the atmosphere.

The key point is that you didn't have anything to do with them being dead, nor did you have anything to do with the ship prior to finding it.


In a Trophy situation - you are taking the ship as a battlefield trophy. It unlawfully attacked you - you can prove it - and thus are claiming the ship as your own because it attacked you.

You MUST prove this point in a court of law, or else you will probably be branded as a pirate.


In both situations there may be others who have some claim to the ship. Usually if a ship is derelict and claimed as Salvage, the insurance has paid on the ship long ago and thus any ownership claims are null and void. In the same manner, if a ship attacks you then a person attempting to claim ownership can become liable or responsible for that attack.


Have fun with it, and if all else fails grab a few choice bits and leave it there for someone else to find.

-MrUkpyr
 
MrUkpyr said:
.....In both situations there may be others who have some claim to the ship. Usually if a ship is derelict and claimed as Salvage, the insurance has paid on the ship long ago and thus any ownership claims are null and void. .....-MrUkpyr

One might assume there would be a 'maritime' registry database of vessels recorded-reported as 'lost at sea', 'missing-presumed lost at sea', etc, such a compendium would clarify salvage rights for players as well as offer seeds for any recovery-treasure hunting adventures to referees.
 
MrUkpyr said:
Usually if a ship is derelict and claimed as Salvage, the insurance has paid on the ship long ago and thus any ownership claims are null and void.

Umm.

No.

The Insurance company, or its successor in law, is now the owner.

This is long established in insurance (and maritime) law.

Phil
 
In the case of Traveller, there may not be any separate insurance companies as such, at least not at the Imperial level. The bank you financed your ship through may have "internal" insurance if part of a Megacorp, or may be selling the debt upwards to a Megacorp.

Upshot is that someone bigger than most PCs will have a legal claim to a salvaged ship.

But maritime salvage law isn't about ownership. It's about *control*. If you have claimed a boat/ship/whatever under all the proper laws as "salvage", you control it. The owners (under whatever status applies) are obliged to deal with you for the return of their property (and the unexpected mitigation of their huge write-off), often to the tune of some percentage of the value for your trouble.

If your claim of salvage rights is at all dubious, it gets ugly. Charges of theft, piracy, or war profiteering will tend to slant the Maritime court against the salvager, resulting in smaller awards or even no awards or criminal charges.

In the Third Imperium, how this plays out will depend on who is granted the authority to hold a Maritime Court. This is a prime area for the Imperial "Rule between the stars" to manifest. Portmasters, panels of "Captains in Port", or even a handy IN Commodore are likely to preside over or provide consultation to a Maritime Court. Who has the connections, secrets, or bias to go your way? The answer will be different in each case...
 
GypsyComet said:
Upshot is that someone bigger than most PCs will have a legal claim to a salvaged ship.
.
Caveat: I am not a maritime lawyer; I sail, and study maritime history.
Also, I accept that this polemic will likely kill the thread..;)

Part of the issue as I see it, is determining if it is salvage or windfall (I think that is the term); if declared salvaged the owner still has control, but must pay a reasonable sum for return (often determined by a maritime court);Windfall generally either defaults to the local polity, or is free for the taking, depending on local law. Often it is a mix, with some percent falling to the polity with jurisdiction, and the remainder to the finder.

Actual condemnation is required to take possession when ownership is clear, and the ship otherwise would be salvage. In other words, the ships previous ownership is voided, usually for clear criminal intent, enemy status, or lack of proof of any ownership.


I think the issue is somewhat different when it applies to parts of a ship - flotsom is stuff that was knocked off the ship and jetsom is stuff that was willfully cast overboard. A storm demasts you completely, your mast is salvage, and must be returned (after a reasonable fee is paid); if you actually have to cut it lose, it counts as jetsom, and is (likely) windfall.


The issue can be complicated by the issue of abandonment; if abandoned (wilfully left empty and out of control) , it may be clear windfall - if it was wrecked (ie abandoned due to natrural forces or forces beyond the crews control) it is likely to be salvage.


So. A ship found floating, with no crew, and no clue as to why it is abandoned, is likely windfall; whereas a ship abandoned due to....say, Reticulan parasite infestation is likely a candidate for salvage.

However, insurance and or mortgage contracts complicate everything. And stolen property always remains the property of the lawful owner. Luckily, there are few insurance policies that cover pirates or warships, and few purpose built pirate raider ships can count as having legal owners.

In the case of the pirate ship, a claim could be made for windfall (if one tries to pass it off as a wreck that was discovered, with no reasonable expectation of discovering the owner); salvage if the legal ownership is known or suspected. To be able to possess it if ownership is known would require condemnation by a maritime court; in this case, I think, the issue is to determine if it is a hostile polities ship (a prize) or a ship expressly owned for illegal activity (trophy ?); and that it was clearly a case of self defense.

Bits and pieces of it would likely fall under jetsam if no major investigation of ownership applies or is possible (ie the ship was scuttled -justified as "removing a hazard to navigation").

Note that if one attacks a pirate and either claims a bounty or the ship, there will be a court investigation to determine that the "pirate" was in fact a pirate. Note that unclear cases are often resolved in the favor of the victim, and the clamant can be liable for damages, and up thru charges of piracy.
 
Historically, the major proof of being attacked by a Pirate was evidence of having been shot, plus captured prisoners, and even when ownership was clear, a pirate voided ownership if the pirate commander had legitimate control of the vessel before she went pirate.

It's an ugly history filled with exceptions and egregious lies found to be such only after the decision and papers were clear of the courts.

And of course, one man's privateer is guaranteed to be someone else's pirate.
 
captainjack23 said:
I think the issue is somewhat different when it applies to parts of a ship - flotsom is stuff that was knocked off the ship and jetsom is stuff that was willfully cast overboard.

Finally I now know what flotsam and jetsam are! *smiles*
 
http://www.safesea.com/boating_info/salvage/anderson/insurance.html

Salvage law is pretty well established these days. If you take the risks required to bring home a lost ship, expect some payment. You can't get the tittle but you can get a lien and you can retain possession until a salvage contract is signed and paid out.

I'd say 5% +/- d6% for a standard get the ship to a port situation. Maybe using skills as a modifier for each side of the argument. Other DMs could include the exceptional risks or expenses in getting the ship to a friendly port.

The cost of the vessel seems to make a difference these days with smaller (cheaper) boats generating salvage rewards of 25% while only a few percent might be rewarded for salvaging a ship worth 60,000,000 dollar ship.
 
I've often seen a career path potential for a salvage-recovery specialist, said vocation would enhance most any Traveller campaign.

That said, it would also suggest the need-purpose for dedicated salvage-recovery operation equipped vessels, the 400 ton X-boat tender given as an example but I see many other possible hulls doing said duties easily.

The 400 ton Type S Lab Ships comes to mind, little if any serious modifications would be needed to make such a good 'dive' boat for working on a wreck or offering aid to a stranded vessel in need of rescue in open 'waters'.

Perhaps a refit 100 ton Scout-Courier would offer a lower cost option to a fledgling recovery service, working under lease or in a mission-to-mission contract. Such possibly acting as the larger 400 ton ship's first responder unit or being advance 'eyes' and ears' searching for profitable space hulks or other opportunities.
 
hdrider67 said:
http://www.safesea.com/boating_info/salvage/anderson/insurance.html

Salvage law is pretty well established these days. If you take the risks required to bring home a lost ship, expect some payment. You can't get the tittle but you can get a lien and you can retain possession until a salvage contract is signed and paid out.

I'd say 5% +/- d6% for a standard get the ship to a port situation. Maybe using skills as a modifier for each side of the argument. Other DMs could include the exceptional risks or expenses in getting the ship to a friendly port.

The cost of the vessel seems to make a difference these days with smaller (cheaper) boats generating salvage rewards of 25% while only a few percent might be rewarded for salvaging a ship worth 60,000,000 dollar ship.

Three words "Grey Seas Under" A Canadiana book about the Foundation Maritime salvage Tug Franklin (Ex-HMS Frisky). Theres examples that can be converted into play, but actually the percentages recieved can be quite substantial and not neccessarily "a few percent".

This is what I'm making my group play under *not that they know this yet...

Take care

E. Herdan

Risks and Rewards

Imperial Admiralty courts, also known as Stellar naval courts, are courts exercising jurisdiction over all maritime contracts, torts, injuries and offences. For the Imperium (and other stellar states), the Admiralty Court also deals with shipping and disputes, such as (and not limited to):
collision
salvage
carriage of cargo
limitation
mortgage disputes

These courts could also act as Prize Courts for cases involving "letters of Marque and Reprisals" (Privateers).
The Court has an in rem procedure (a claim relating to a ship itself). It can arrest vessels and cargoes and sell them within the jurisdiction of the Imperium. They are found at Class "A" Starports, and at any planet containing a naval base. If an event occurs where there is no court, the matter is then referred to the closest class A starport/naval base (within a 6 Parsec limit) or to the subsector Admiralty Court.

Normally it takes a court from 9 to 14 months (8 +1d6 months) time for investigations, depositions, interviews, delays, interrogations, preliminary reports, final dispositions, costs, fees, taxes owing, final reports, and for the cheque(s) (if any) to make its way to those involved. Amounts rewarded can be considerable, hence the lengthy time needed for thorough investigations.

In regards to salvage, the court tries to determine "what would the loss be to the owners* of the ship, if the rescuers did not come upon the scene and render aid?". This can range from a reward of 1% (in which aid rendered was minimal, with no risk of harm to the rescuers) all the way to 100% (e.g. there are no owners alive and rescuers faced serious injuries and possible death) with most rewards falling in the 20% to 50% range. It is up to the GM to make a final determination of the reward amount. Its very rare that individuals would gain a ship, if not seized by the crown it would be sold at a (much) later date to various companies, groups, etc. *Note that if a ship has any payment still owing, the owner is the lending institution, not the individual who is making those payments.

Skills that are useful for dealing with Admiralty Courts include Admin, Advocate, Art (writing), Diplomat, investigate, and persuade.

Admin can be used in reducing the time it takes for the proceedings and for a Task Chain skill for Advocate. Advocate is used in either increasing the percentage awarded or significantly decreasing the time of payment.

Art (writing) is used as a Task Chain skill for Advocate.
Persuade are used as Task Chain skills (for Advocate and from investigate)
Investigate is used in reducing the time of the proceeding, and for Advocate.
Diplomat goes directly to the Advocate. All tasks are average save that of Advocate (Hard).

Stand alone Skills

ADMIN (Average task +0 DM) Reduces time of proceeding by X weeks.
INVESTIGATE (Average task +0 DM) Gathers information for the court. Depositions, witnesses, evidence, etc. If successful, reduces time of proceedings by X weeks, if failure, increases time by Y weeks (Y being the larger value of the 2 dice)
ADVOCATE (Very Difficult Task -4 DM) If successful choose X2 for increase in % reward rate or reduce time of proceedings by X2 months.

Task Chain DM sequences
Investigate ---> (Persuade (if there are any witnesses)) ---> }
Admin ---> (Art (writing) if available) ---> } ---> ADVOCATE
(Diplomat (Advocate player only)---> }

With 3 task chain sequences, the final modifier for the advocate roll can range from -6 to +6. The Persuade, Art (writing), and Diplomat skill use are all optional....

You cannot have more than 2 Advocates working upon the same case. As it is a very difficult task for the Advocate, the only other skill that player can use is the Diplomat skill. Often you'll see groups split up into a cascade team (Admin person, Investigate person and then both to the Advocate who usually argues for % increase) and solos' (Admin person and investigate person both aiming to reduce the time by weeks). If a group is lucky enough to have 2 cascade teams, one advocate must argue for increased % and the other for reduced time in months. Both can fail, both can succeed, or a mix of the two states.

A failure on Advocate (in this case)does not carry a penalty. It does not decrease the award nor does it increase the time.

If the PC's wish to hire an advocate, treat as if they are hiring a local Broker from the speculative trade & smuggling section. The local Advocate fee is TWICE the percentage given (i.e. 2% to 30%) and is based upon the characters final reward. The local Advocate will inform the PC's what her contingency fee is before they agree to be hired...
 
For a nice, real-world example of a Traveller salvage crew, read this:

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/16-03/ff_seacowboys
 
vargr1 said:
For a nice, real-world example of a Traveller salvage crew, read this:

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/16-03/ff_seacowboys

That was an amazing story. Thanks.

I'm pretty sure the Navy was the most dangerous of the armed forces (OK, the Coasties have it rough, too) when we're not at war.

I've seen a man have both legs crushed by a coke machine, another fall doen an elevator shaft, a drowning, and a guy break half his ribs when a line snapped during landing ops (my first ship was a gator freighter). Those aren't all of the injuries or even deaths. We also lost two or three Marines during West-Pac but I didn't know them I'll count them as sailors, since they were on one of my boats when it happened.

So I wsn't shocked this company has lost so many people in a few years. The sea is a harsh mistress.

And she's worth every bit of the danger and effort.
 
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