Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
I find people prefer to shoot at the Trolligan :?Burger said:
Wulf
Sagittarius officially changed in S&P38
- Thread starter mbtanker
- Start date
Wulf
Locutus9956 said:
The problem here is quite clear - at any given PL you have a choice - you either choose (continuing the example) A Morshin, a Tinashi/Variant or a Neshatan. Or you choose a Troligan and you fight at a disadvantage.
The enemy automatically knows that your choices are limited to 3, not 4. Your flexibility is reduced, and the predictability of your fleet is increased, putting you at a straight disadvantage with your opponent tailoring their fleet to beat the ships he knows with a good deal of certainty you /have/ to take in order to compete.
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
I think it's frustration. Virtually everyone beats the Stealth on the Trolligan, so at least they get to shoot SOMETHING...Burger said:
Wulf
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
I like to think of it as being the punishment meeted out by the universe for the Trolligan being so ugly...Burger said:
Wulf
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Yep. I personally would rather kill the 2 Troligans than 1 Sharlin. Its too pretty to die 
And Alex this is the last I'll say on this particular subject, but frankly thats only a real issue if you have only 1 good ship you could possibly take and all the others are rubbish. One or two weak ships in a fleet choice out of 10 or 12 other possible choices does not make for a predictable fleet.
5pt Raid Minbari fleets (as an example)
2 Tinashis and a Leshath,
2 Veshatans and a Leshath
1 Morshin and 3 Tigaras
1 Sharlin and a Leshath
4 Tigaras and a Leshath
3 Tigaras an 4 Torothas
10 Torothas (laugh all you like I've actually found this can be surprisingly succesful in some situations)
2 Morshins and a Leshath (Nial ganking fun)
5 Leshaths (this would probably be rather inefective now stealth has been toned down though....)
Thats without even going into the Various Sharlin varients.
Now if you add the Troligan as a viable ship you add a few more options sure but most of the above fleets play quite differentely so Id hardly say that 1 weak ship = predictable fleet. The only thing you can predict is your opponent wont field any Troligans! (incidentally I don't care what anyone says I still LIKE the Torotha, its just an anpleasant surprise for the enemy if they find all of a sudden they dont outnumber the Minbari for initiative sinks!)
And Alex this is the last I'll say on this particular subject, but frankly thats only a real issue if you have only 1 good ship you could possibly take and all the others are rubbish. One or two weak ships in a fleet choice out of 10 or 12 other possible choices does not make for a predictable fleet.
5pt Raid Minbari fleets (as an example)
2 Tinashis and a Leshath,
2 Veshatans and a Leshath
1 Morshin and 3 Tigaras
1 Sharlin and a Leshath
4 Tigaras and a Leshath
3 Tigaras an 4 Torothas
10 Torothas (laugh all you like I've actually found this can be surprisingly succesful in some situations)
2 Morshins and a Leshath (Nial ganking fun)
5 Leshaths (this would probably be rather inefective now stealth has been toned down though....)
Thats without even going into the Various Sharlin varients.
Now if you add the Troligan as a viable ship you add a few more options sure but most of the above fleets play quite differentely so Id hardly say that 1 weak ship = predictable fleet. The only thing you can predict is your opponent wont field any Troligans! (incidentally I don't care what anyone says I still LIKE the Torotha, its just an anpleasant surprise for the enemy if they find all of a sudden they dont outnumber the Minbari for initiative sinks!)
Epaminondas
Mongoose
Reasons why the Sagittarius would not be the only ship the EA uses?
Read the fluff- logistics!
The EA has most of its industrial infastructure concentrated at Earth, and the sol system. You need to ship those missiles to front, which require convoys, escorts etc.
Logistically, sagittarius are a nightmare.
Operationally, reliance one only one weapon system means if the enemy has a good counter (Minbari stealth systems), you are screwed with no effective weapons.
Read van Crevald's Logistics and War.
Weapons systems and battles get the glory- but logistics wins wars, not tactics. [granted its better have both great tacticians and logistics!]
Read the fluff- logistics!
The EA has most of its industrial infastructure concentrated at Earth, and the sol system. You need to ship those missiles to front, which require convoys, escorts etc.
Logistically, sagittarius are a nightmare.
Operationally, reliance one only one weapon system means if the enemy has a good counter (Minbari stealth systems), you are screwed with no effective weapons.
Read van Crevald's Logistics and War.
Weapons systems and battles get the glory- but logistics wins wars, not tactics. [granted its better have both great tacticians and logistics!]
Unfortunately the PL system doesn't deal in logistics. You get points, you spend them - 5 raid points gives you 10 fully supplied Saggitarius. The only way to deal with the fluff logistics issues is to impose arbitrary limits on the no. of any given class that can be in any fleet list, but do you really want to go along that road?
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
Yup 8)Alexb83 said:
Wulf
Black Omega
Mongoose
Me too Wulf!
All those in favour of fleet structures say aye!
All those in favour of fleet structures say aye!
It could be just as simple as saying: no more than half your FAPs (if you have more than one) may be spent on any given class.
Encourages variety... but would completely stitch up Vorlons and Shadows.
I dunno. Brain freeze on how you'd do it and still allow customisability of fleets...
Encourages variety... but would completely stitch up Vorlons and Shadows.
I dunno. Brain freeze on how you'd do it and still allow customisability of fleets...
i'm against this idea as whose to say that all of a given class cant be in the same place at the same time? i'm sure the drazi could get all their solarhawks together if they wish. same as the EA did with all their shadow omegas. artificial limits like that take away from the game.
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
Or they can add to it. Don't BAN them, just make them more expensive, like Admirals.katadder said:
Wulf
katadder said:
Why not drop the PL system as well, after all the EA fielded a fleet composed almost entirely of Omegas to defend Earth..? They should cost the same as Starfuries given the relative quantities we saw in that scene...
After all, why deploy a fighter squadron when you could deploy a Destroyer. It'll do the job much better and I don't want to be bound by any artificial limits...
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
Yes in principle, but making it work is going to be more difficult than it sounds- or very simple.
Problem; how do fleets evolve with time? Most races who aren't either mired in their own overconfidence (Minbari?) or technologically sterile will react to changing circumstances. Fleets will be assembled for missions, and construction orders placed, based on what seems to be working at the moment.
And what happens when Command gets it wrong, and overconcentrates on a type of ship or a tactical style subsequent field experience proves to be pointless-verging-on-suicidal? Do we have to perpetuate the mistakes the races in the series made, too? (Before anyone says 'name one', EMW.)
Start to produce a complex, detailed system of growth and change and you soon find out quite a lot about logistics, or at least what 'bogged down' means.
A simple limit is all that's going to work, as a rules term. I'm in favour of realism in general, but in this case it would come at too high a price in playability.
Full flexibility- arbitrary, munchkinable, not much of a rules headache.
Hard and fast limits- arbitrary, much less munchkinable, not much of a rules headache.
Flexible, complex limits- probably munchkinable somehow, massive rules headache. No middle of the road, please. Hard limits or none.
Problem; how do fleets evolve with time? Most races who aren't either mired in their own overconfidence (Minbari?) or technologically sterile will react to changing circumstances. Fleets will be assembled for missions, and construction orders placed, based on what seems to be working at the moment.
And what happens when Command gets it wrong, and overconcentrates on a type of ship or a tactical style subsequent field experience proves to be pointless-verging-on-suicidal? Do we have to perpetuate the mistakes the races in the series made, too? (Before anyone says 'name one', EMW.)
Start to produce a complex, detailed system of growth and change and you soon find out quite a lot about logistics, or at least what 'bogged down' means.
A simple limit is all that's going to work, as a rules term. I'm in favour of realism in general, but in this case it would come at too high a price in playability.
Full flexibility- arbitrary, munchkinable, not much of a rules headache.
Hard and fast limits- arbitrary, much less munchkinable, not much of a rules headache.
Flexible, complex limits- probably munchkinable somehow, massive rules headache. No middle of the road, please. Hard limits or none.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
I know this is probably a familliar tune coming from me now but.....
B5Wars got this dead right in my opinion:
Ships had their PL costs (or points as the case may be) but were also classed as: common, uncommon, rare or unique.
Bassically Common ships you could take as many as you liked.
With early EA as an example:
You could make the Hyperion Common (as it was more or less the backbone of the fleet).
The Nova Uncommon - no more than half the fleet could be made up of them.
The Sag as a support ship could be rare so you could only field one per three other ships.
etc etc.
It would require fine tuning so as to work with the PL system but it could be doen.
B5Wars got this dead right in my opinion:
Ships had their PL costs (or points as the case may be) but were also classed as: common, uncommon, rare or unique.
Bassically Common ships you could take as many as you liked.
With early EA as an example:
You could make the Hyperion Common (as it was more or less the backbone of the fleet).
The Nova Uncommon - no more than half the fleet could be made up of them.
The Sag as a support ship could be rare so you could only field one per three other ships.
etc etc.
It would require fine tuning so as to work with the PL system but it could be doen.
