RuneQuest Player Characters who start with Sorcery

[Jed Clayton]

Hello,

here is something I haven't found spelled out in the new RuneQuest books so far (I have RQMR, Companion, Monsters, and Glorantha):

In short, what about new Player Characters that, due to players' preferences or cultural flavour in the context of the game, should start with Sorcery Spells instead of the basic Rune Magic from RQMR?

After checking again last weekend, as well as discussing this with a long-time player from my group, I came away thinking that under the current rules, "Sorcery" is a much more "fun" system of magic compared to Rune Magic. It's pretty open-ended and offers a lot of leeway even for apprentice sorcerers. I have previously used Sorcery only for bad guy NPCs in my RQ3 game years ago, and would like to slowly make it available to PCs.

One obvious character archetype that ought to start into the game with sorcery is the "Wizard" from pg. 13 of the RQMR. I have pointed out to some of my new players during character generation that I was already thinking about allowing the "Witch" and "Wizard" professions to get Sorcery instead of Rune Magic, but you'd have to pick either one or the other at the beginning. (Admittedly that decision is mainly a holdover from my Hero Wars/HeroQuest groups, where clearly a character's cultural heritage determined their starting magic, and the three main magic forms did not easily "mingle.")

Yesterday I had a quick idea for how to replace the Runecasting and other specialties from the Wizard template with sorcery-related skills. It goes like this:

Wizard
The player of a Wizard can also choose to start his adventuring career as a practitioner of Sorcery instead of the more rustic and common Rune Magic. If he chooses to play a Sorcerous Wizard, there will be only a few minor adjustments to the skills and skill bonuses in the chart (page 13).

Do not choose the three different Runecasting skills under Advanced Skills, nor the additional Lore skill listed under "Pick One." Instead, you must give the character appropriate skills for sorcery:
- Pick THREE of the five Manipulation Skills from the Sorcery chapter, one of which always has to be Manipulation (Magnitude).
- In addition, the character has learned 1D6+2 Sorcery Spells from his master(s). Any spell from the basic Sorcery chapter, Companion ppg. 29-37 can be selected, though the obvious beginner's spells are usually Mystic Vision, Damage Resistance, Enhance ..., Glow, Haste, Hinder, and Treat Wounds. Any spell selected is already known at its base score (INT+POW).

Any Manipulation Skill and Sorcery Spell can benefit from the distribution of the 100 free skill points.

What do you think about that?

 

[Utgardloki]

I would say that it would work better to create a different Sorcerer profession (or professions, for different flavors of sorcerers), than to try to say "pick one or the other".

Another question is whether it is possible to be both a sorcerer and a runecaster? The flavor of Runequest is that there are no classes, and therefore, nothing would prevent a character from picking up sorcery, rune magic, and divine magic.

In fact, the spellcasting "professions" I am contemplating for my Runequest Modern game frequently combine different spellcasting types. Druids, for example, combine wizardry with divine magic. Witches are notorious for using just about any form of magic they can get their hands on.

One thing I have not considered is the balance between sorcery and runecasting. My thought is that with sorcery, each spell requires two or three skills, while a single runecasting skill covers a lot of spells. This means that while sorcery is more flexible, to be good at it requires a much more intense focus of effort. Thus, if you want to be good at something besides spellcasting, Runecasting has a distinct advantage, but if you want to be Mr. Sorcerer Fantastic, then Sorcery has strong advantages.

I would consider the setting. In general, Wizard and Sorcerer would be different professions, although they may start out very similar. That's the way I would handle it in Runequest. In Iron Kingdoms, I've decided that "Sorcerers" are simply runecasters who are born with one or more runes already attuned to themselves, and "dynamic sorcery" as defined in the Companion does not exist. In Runequest Modern, there is no profession that comes with Runecasting, but that requires a legendary ability. There are also no "sorcerers", as that is too generic, but there are "wizards" and "witches" and "druids" and "shamans" who all have a different mix of magic focus.

(One of these days I plan to start a thread on professions, as I don't like the way that they are defined in the MRQ rulebook, and would not use them at all except that the concept of profession does seem useful for tying certain elements together.)

One alternative is simply to allow players to pick Sorcery skills as an advanced skill, rather than restrict sorcery to those who select it as a profession.

 

[philreed]

My new Expanded Professions includes a sorcerer profession.

 

[Jed Clayton]

That all sounds very reasonable and thought-through, Utgardloki.

So you are running RuneQuest Modern? Is that something set on modern-day Earth?

It sounds interesting in any case. I'd be happy to learn more about it.
You are right about witches in most settings, especially if you go by the precedent set by recent pop-culture witches like the ones from Charmed, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, W.I.T.C.H. (that is more Power Rangers/superhero-flavoured, to be fair), Tarot, and maybe Raven from the Teen Titans.

In my game, which so far is a non-Gloranthan open-ended medieval fantasy world, characters (Player Characters to be exact) would be free to add spells and bonuses from any of the three main magic styles, mixing and matching to the extent that they like best. Some players may not appreciate the additional game math and avoid mixed magic purely for that reason. In my game, not every spell will be readily available, of course, and I figure I'll be making up additional spells at some point next year. I don't want magic to be a commodity you buy at a neighbourhood shop ... though some magic may be, in the form of books and scrolls. But there is no overall prohibition against mixing Sorcery with something else.

I remembered a rules explanation in RQ3 (Magic Book?), where a character finds a scroll that contains, for the sake of rules examples, one Divine spell, one Sorcery spell, and one Spirit Magic spell. This example always suggested to me that mixing the three forms or styles occurred with some regularity, and it wasn't until Hero Wars came out (in 2000) that I switched to a culture-driven system that said, "If you are from a sorcery-using culture, then the character will only know sorcery stuff, no other magic." HeroQuest amended this slightly by allowing characters to "concentrate" in a given form of magic, which made them better at the form they had fully committed to. Of course, the HW/HQ mode always made clear that advanced spells or cult secrets were only available to devotees and suchlike who had committed themselves to the cult in question.

The mode I am thinking about now is the mode I've always had in mind for RuneQuest. A character's personal history, preferences, and religious beliefs will also determine whether or not he mixes magic, and which "foreign" spells he would even care to look at. This would be the standard mode for my RuneQuest, Gloranthan or otherwise.

 

[Jed Clayton]

My new Expanded Professions includes a sorcerer profession.

Hey, that looks interesting, too! Good idea.

I'll put your book on my wish-list for next month. Thank you so much.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Sounds like a good way to do it. And yeah, there's nothing preventing anyone from learning 2 or all 3 magic types, unless you want to have a setting based restriction.

 

[Gnarsh]

First off. I agree that the best way to handle that is to simply create a separeate profession for using sorcery. Shouldn't be hard to find something that works in the campaign you're playing.

Traditionally RQ3 handled the three types of magic, not so much as a cultural thing but as more of a "guild" system with limitations built in by those who granted the magic. There's nothing inherent in the magic itself that makes one incompatible with any other. However, the sources for those different spell types will tend to limit access.

I always thought that was a great way to do it. Remember that RQ is not a class based game. Restrictions on what a character can do are always (or should always) be in the form of restrictions applied within the campaign world itself, and not as a result of some meta-rules. There's nothing preventing a Stormbull warrior from training in the Arts and performing at the local theatre. However, his fellow cult members will likely look down on him for doing so, and advancement will be more difficult as a result. Restrictions are roleplayed more then strongly enforced. More to the point, cults are going to tend to want their members to only use magic from their god. Shamans are going to want their followers and tribemembers to use their magic as well (even "city shamans/magicians" since that's a form of revenue for them, right?). Sorcerers may not care, but they're typically not going to be allowed to obtain spells from the other two groups.

I've always used that system in my campaign, and it's worked very well. It also allows you to not paint yourself in a corner since the "rules" are social rather then strict physics/magic. This allows you to break the rules in rare cases. Perhaps the Stormbull in the example above is the greatest and most feared slayer of Chaos on four continents. Well. Now, if he wants to go hang out with the artsy types, who's really going to tell him he can't? This allows the GM to grant heroic PCs with abilities or spells that might be barred to the "common folk". And that can really add something to a campaign if it's not overdone.

In the end, it's up to how you want to manage your particular campaign. No two settings are going to be the same (nor should they). It's up to you as the GM to come up with a consistent set of rules for magic, in terms of how people gain magic, how they use it, and how they'll be viewed by those around them as a result. All can be used as tools to control the feel of magic in your campaign.

 

[Utgardloki]

I was thinking of introducing a Rabbit cult into Glorantha, and that got me thinking about an adventure where worshippers of a trickster god were asked to steal a divine spell of the Rabbit cult, and integrate it into the Trickery Rune so that other tricksters could use it.

Be an interesting idea.

One problem that I am having is that I am thinking again of running an Iron Kingdoms game converted to Runequest, and in Iron Kingdoms, sorcerers, bards, and perhaps most wizards are born with magic. I haven't figured out a good way to determine whether or not a given PC is "witchborn", i.e., born with the gift of magic.

One thought is to have each player draw a card to indicate their birth destiny. Players could trade cards if they wish, or try to ignore their "gift" if they were set on playing a non-spellcasting warrior. (That would fit into the setting, since "sorcerers" are feared among the local population, so a sorcerer who didn't cast any spells would be a workable concept -- the GM would probably want to complicate his life, however. :twisted: )

My Runequest Modern game is set in the modern world, yes. But in that one I have advantage points to control character creation advantages. I'm not sure if I should use them for Iron Kingdoms or not.

So the card idea seems to be the best bet.

 

[kintire]

So the card idea seems to be the best bet.

Its all taste of course, But I would be strongly inclined to let them choose. If they want to play a magic user, why not let them?

 

[Utgardloki]

My main concern is game balance.

D&D is balanced because in order to be a sorcerer or wizard, you lose out on other abilities. It's all been carefully balanced and fair.

Runequest does not have the class mechanism to balance PCs out. So if a witchborn character has a major advantage over a non-witchborn character ("Hey, I can just point my finger at the guy and he freezes!"), then how can this be balanced? To compete, every PC would have to be witchborn.

I could, of course, just state that and let the chips fall where they may. If all players decide to run witchborn PCs, that could be interesting, especially since I'll probably be dealing with a very small core "party." (There are only two players I can count on showing up regularly, so the "iconic" D&D campaign does not work.)

It may work to give the players the option of being or not being "witch-born", but if witch-born PCs have a major advantage, the players should know this before they start making their characters.

(One wrinkle in this is that my conversion of Iron Kingdoms to Runequest implies that "sorcerers" do not have a profession per se, but instead are gifted with attunement to a small number of runes (say 1-4 runes) without having to acquire them. This is different from a Glorantha campaign, where a sorcerer would have to purchase training from someone with some sort of sorcerer profession.)

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Historically, and if we're talking Glorantha, the various magic systems (and yes, the existence of a "Sorcery" equivalent was acknowledged in RQ2, even if there were no game mechanics for it) required such a completely different mind-set and outlook on the world as to make them incompatible (with the exception of some cross-over between Battle Magic and (the old) Rune Magic). The "Cosmology (Before Creation)" section of the old "Cause of Time" essay spells this out clearly.

In game mechanic terms, there are various duties and obligations that prevent anybody from becoming a serious practitioner of more than one magic system.

For starting characters with magic types other than Rune Magic in MRQ, I think what's happening here is the balance between "new player" and "new character" tipping in favour of "new player". As the simplest magic type, it's definitely the one that new players should be choosing. And as MRQ is a new game it's fair to say that new players will be in a majority for some time to come.

 

[Voriof]

In game mechanic terms, there are various duties and obligations that prevent anybody from becoming a serious practitioner of more than one magic system.

In Cults of Glorantha, one can only be consecrated (the MRQ version of concentration) to one magic system (plus Rune Magic) and may not advance in any other beyond the most casual usage. Thus we don't have the old RQ3 schmozzle of an Orlanthi Wind Lord knowing sorcery and throwing around spirits.

Voriof

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

In game mechanic terms, there are various duties and obligations that prevent anybody from becoming a serious practitioner of more than one magic system.

In Cults of Glorantha, one can only be consecrated (the MRQ version of concentration) to one magic system (plus Rune Magic) and may not advance in any other beyond the most casual usage. Thus we don't have the old RQ3 schmozzle of an Orlanthi Wind Lord knowing sorcery and throwing around spirits.

Voriof

Ah, that's fine. I haven't actually seen it yet, so didn't want to say any more about MRQ/Glorantha.

 

[Voriof]

Ah, that's fine. I haven't actually seen it yet, so didn't want to say any more about MRQ/Glorantha.

At least, that's the way it is written in Cults I. Sorcery and Shamanism (the MRQ word for Animist) are in Cults II. However, the HQ model otherworlds are in Cults I which explains why you can only draw magical power from one source-world.

However, some cults can combine several different types because they are based on Underworld or Middle World sources (Kyger Litor and Aldrya respectively). However, these 'mixed' magic cults may only use magic associated with their cult and no others.

Jeff

 

[soltakss]

Yuk!

 

[Voriof]

Yuk!

That's if you want to have a troll using sorcery and shamanism, you're going to have to stick to Kyger Litor and Saint Arkat. It is, according to Greg, the way it ought to have been.

Voriof

 

[Utgardloki]

I guess I assumed that because one of the major differences between Runequest and D&D is the way characters are or are not pidgeon-holed into character classes, that it would make sense to allow mixing and matching of magic types for one character.

Heck, D&D allows for multiclassing, although almost by definition a primary spellcaster who multiclasses is no longer a primary spellcaster. The same applies in Runequest, especially for sorcerers, in that to be an "uber-sorcerer", a character really has to concentrate on that discipline to the exclusion of almost everything else, including runecasting.

There certainly is no reason in the game rules why a character could not use sorcery, rune magic, and divine magic.

I need to acquire and read more Glorantha stuff before I embarass myself with definitive pronouncements on how things should work in Glorantha. I suppose that in the Iron Kingdoms, you can not combine rune magic and sorcery because sorcery, as defined in the Runequest Companion, does not exist in that setting. Perhaps in Glorantha, sorcery is only accessible to a select set of guilds and/or cults, and if you are not in one of those, forget it.

OTOTH, if that last sentence applies, it is then theoretically possible for a rune caster of any cult to try to figure out the secrets of sorcery and make them available to his comrads.

 

[TRose]

there are a few people that canand do mix magic types, but then they are rare in Glorantha. The cult of Arkat does as mention above, but then they are a bubchof highly disciplined zeolots not really suitable for most characters. Then there the Aelelion Church( MIght have mispelled that) Who mix both sorcery and worship Of Orlanth. but they are rare.
One question I would have is do Malkion intergrate Runes and if so is the effect different since orthodox Malkioni dont use Runecasting.

 

[soltakss]

There certainly is no reason in the game rules why a character could not use sorcery, rune magic, and divine magic.

As I said "Yuk!".

 

[simonh]

There certainly is no reason in the game rules why a character could not use sorcery, rune magic, and divine magic.

That's true, the reasons are in the game world.

Each of the types of magic is based on a different way of thinking about the world. Sorcery is based on the Malkioni materialist analysis of the world. It is based on a logical, empirical analysis of the physical, moral and metaphysical laws of the universe. It is powered by their faith and commitment to that world view.

Theism, Animism and Mysticism are completely different world views, based on completely different and (for the most part) mutually incompatible beliefs about the nature of the world and how to positively engage with it (or whether to engage with it at all, in the case of Mysticism).

Imagine (purely for the sake of argument) that Catholicism, Hinduism and North American shamanism each provided real working magic (and bear in mind that actually, their faithful believe that they actually do, i.e. that their ceremonies and rituals work). A North American shaman can't just read a book on the lives of the saints, and then perform miracles alongside his shamanistic worship of nature spirits. Saintly miracles are supposed to be a sign of closeness and commitment to god, and an animist unbeliever doesn't qualify so either he's wouldn't be able to perform catholic miracles, or the Catholics are wrong about their faith and the miracles of the saints are mundane effects that have nothing to do with genuine divine favour. Likewise a Catholic priest who decided to worship Hindu deities to gain their magic would be on a fast track to excommunication, and it's difficult to see how he'd be able to lead Catholic religious ceremonies or perform blessings with a straight face. How could he devoutly complete a harvest festival blessing of the crops and reaffirming his devotion to one god, and then go off to perform a Hindu crop blessing ceremony?

The forms of magic in Glorantha are religious practices, based on religious faith and that's why they are very tricky to combine. For other worlds the situation may be different, but bear in mind that the game rules are not the world rules and in themselves won't tell you everything about what is sensible or not. They are merely a resource management and contest resolution system.