runecasting, cults and Glorantha - again

[Deleriad]

Like a few people I've been trying to find ways to make MRQ magic work in Glorantha in ways that make sense to me. Here's my latest untested thoughts.

Problem: the rune magic taught by cults rarely seems to have anything to do with the runes the cult's deity has thus it is hard to know how exactly cult members cast cult rune magic unless runes are so common in the world that everyone has integrated a few. OR runes are so rare that most people don't know any rune magic.

One solution: each time you progress to a new stage in a cult (initiate, acolyte, runepriest etc) you gain an affinity with one of the cult's runes. This allows you to develop the appropriate runecasting skill and to cast magic associated with that rune. It does not integrate the rune so you do not gain a rune touched bonus. (This is on the premise that rune integration is actually pretty rare.)

In addition: cult rune magic can be cast through any of the cult's runes regardless of the usual runic associations. This represents the deity's actions during the God Time. Example: the storm god has the runes air and motion and several cult rune spells including Skybolt. Normally (ahem) Skybolt is associated with the chaos rune but initiates of the storm god can cast it through either air or motion.

Similarly, associations other than cults may have access to runes in this way and some non-standard magical runic associations. The Mason's Guild may have access to Metal and Earth runes and be able to cast Repair, Coordination, Glue and Hammeright using their runes.

It's another attempt at a minimal fix.

 

[Blackyinkin]

Hi,

The way that I have been playing the Divine Cults is that upon initiation you intergrate the cult runes, this represents the gods powerful awakening within the individual. Surely it is more likely that a Yelmalion would embody the runes of Light and ruth than anyone else?

However for the cult "Rune" spells I have been using the Lore (Theology) skill for spell casting. The cult teaches its own spells up to Magnitude 4 and associated cult spells can be learned to Magnitude 2. However cults frown upon the using of non-cult or associate cult runes or rune spells, how they frown on this depends on the cult in question. The use of these magics is basically the initiate utilising the powers of his or her deity in a manner way, I beleive that the manifestation of the Rune Spells is different for each cult.

I someone leaves a cult the spirit of retribution comes and strips them of the cult Runes, and perhaps rune spells that have been taught by the cult. Excommunication has the same effect, severing a characters ties from the god in question.

So far this has worked well in my Third Age campaign. It also ties in with the way in which Heroquest 2 has been handling magic in Glorantha.

Cheers Simon

 

[Exubae]

We tend to use the Cult Runes only for a potential list of spells the cult has access to, they otherwise have no baring on spell casting. Rune spells are cast with the Theology skill, the cult providing all runic requirements for its associated rune spell.

However, the cult does have access to supplies of the cult Runes for integration which it uses as rewards - we also allow the basic Rune Casting skill for a cult rune to start at half the cultists Theology once it has been integrated- where upon the character gains the option to use Theology or the newly acquired Rune Casting skill.

If a character becomes excommunicated he loses the ability to cast Rune spells through Theology, and if he doesn't have the required runes for the spells he knows they become uncastable.

 

[TRose]

In my game , each cult has access to limited number of their God's Runes and they are given out as rewards for doing quest and mission for the Cult. Performing quest and missions for friendly Cults can also result in a gift of a rune. But the deed has to be more difficult/important then your own cult.
Some cult also have access to runes other then their Gods normal Runes because of their Gods Action before time. Zorak Zoran has the Fire Rune while Argan Argar has the heat Rune for example but these are less common and harder to get then their normal runes .

 

[Deleriad]

The way that I have been playing the Divine Cults is that upon initiation you intergrate the cult runes, this represents the gods powerful awakening within the individual. Surely it is more likely that a Yelmalion would embody the runes of Light and ruth than anyone else?

The issue I have with this is that it seems to make initiation too powerful because effectively you get 2 or 3 rune touched abilities simply for joining a cult and it doesn't cost you anything. Partly that is a gamist issue but partly it seems wrong in Gloranthan terms. Each rune-touched ability is at least as powerful as a Humakti gift without a geas to balance it. In addition, each initiate gets an initiate benefit as well.

Without knowing the HQ2.0 rules I do understand the premise that each person gains a relationship to (3?) runes but that relationship only gives minor abilities which would be closer to the power level of folk magic than the rune touched bonuses in MRQ.

Having mulled it over further I'm preferring the idea of "affinity" as something which lets you use the appropriate runecasting skill without integrating a rune. Maybe it would also make it easier to integrate the rune.

Like everyone else in this thread it seems, I allow initiates to cast cult "rune magic" through lore (ST). I do assume that cults have access to some actual runes but that they're pretty rare and are usually given only to runepriests and runelords.

 

[Blackyinkin]

However, you have to remember that the Humakti and Yelmalion will both get to intergrate their runes for their cults as well as their gifts and geas. You will still be tied to cult duties and thithes, cult restrictions and living in a manner which best resembles the actions of your god. If you follow Barntar then that means you plough the fields and tend the cows, if its Buserian you read the books and stare at the night sky, if you worship Shargash you beat the drums and slay the ritual enemies. There are already draw backs intergral to being initiated as well as boons. For most Gloranthans it is the actions of the Gods, Spirits and Saints that dictates their daily actions in some way.

Folk Magic closely resembles the Common Magic concept of Heroquest, however this has been dropped to the best of my knowledge in HQ2, although I was actually quite a fan of it. However yes most players in the new HQ rules concept can start the game tied to three runes, these are usually culturally appropriate (Moon for Lunars, Air for Orlanthi, Light for Sun Domers) plus a couple of player chosen ones. Without being initiated these allow a player to augment a skill, but not perform unique magic. So a guy with a fire rune can use it to help him get a spark from his flint and tinder, but an initiate of Lodril can do real fire power magic.

I see this as no more powerful than a sorceror or spiritist. For example a sorceror can cast powerful spells for low MP cost so long as he does do too many manipulations. This system is not high powered especially when you are pitting your Orlanthi or Dara Happan players against God Learners and EWF Dragon Magic Users. The key issue is that with some of the poor editting that took place with the Cults books, Gloranthan Divine magic (in fact all divine magic) has been weakened by the rule changes. Priest and Lords gain little benefit from the Divine Magic system, unless you use one of the Divine Spell Pool optional rules. There have also been the loss of powerful spells such as Sever Spirit. Some spells are completely messed up (Crush being my most used example).

I personally don't actually feel that the Divine Magic system reflects Glorantha at all as it stands, based on Greg's stories and Histories. It is all too gamist. However, as I said in my first post the system I have been using has been working for me in my games.

Simon

 

[TRose]

If you are looking at play balance then you should look at how hard for A Spirit practitioner to get a charm. 100 silver and a point of power and you have your charm , which works like a rune for game purpose.

 

[Deleriad]

At the risk of branching this conversation too far and with the usual caveat that you have to plough through the standard miasma of Mongoose editing failures I've been reappraising Mongoose's take on divine magic recently.

I'm by no means a Gloranthan expert but as I understand it, Greg talks about people sacrificing for magic before they head off to do something.

Now the biggest cost to acquire divine magic in MRQ is money, time and then access to a temple where the spell can be acquired. Then your POW is somewhat suppressed until you release the spell.

If you think of the money as an abstraction that quantifies how much in the way of resources needs to be sacrificed in order to gain the magic (rather than just going into a church fund) then divine magic can be seen as a way of parlaying community wealth into magical power. Now given that such power is one-use then there's a strong incentive not to use it except in cases of extreme need. Also, because storing the magic uses up your own magical potency then there's also a strong incentive not to sacrifice for it until you think you might need it.

When you put the system in those terms it actually seems to make a certain sense in what I understand to be Gloranthan theistic terms.

There is an issue of what does a priest get that an initiate doesn't. Well the list is:
1. Higher magnitude magic - initiate limited to mag 4.
2. Can cast magic that is restricted to priest only.
3. Can appeal for divine intervention (initiates can't in MRQ).
4. Half the cost to gain magic.
5. The listed priest benefit in the cult write-up.

#3 also implies that it is in a community's interest to have a priest. if the cost is halved because the priest has a stronger link with a deity and therefore only needs to sacrifice half of the normal resources then a community gets access to half-price divine magic through supporting a priest.

What's happening then is that divine magic is a money sink in that it is converting GDP (as it were) to unrecoverable assets (divine spells). It seems to me that this is actually rather interesting.

Key assumption: the 'money' used to buy the spell is effectively destroyed not recycled into the cult's coffers.

 

[Deleriad]

If you are looking at play balance then you should look at how hard for A Spirit practitioner to get a charm. 100 silver and a point of power and you have your charm , which works like a rune for game purpose.

Under Simon's system your cost to integrate up to 3 runes is 50 Silver and no POW by becoming an initiate. Plus you get an initiation benefit which is often around the same level as a rune touched benefit. That's why I find rune integration as part of initiation to be out of balance in terms of game mechanics.

 

[Blackyinkin]

However I have also stated that the cults in my game then frown upon the further intergration of runes from other sources and force a player to follow strictures and teachings, whereas the standard Runecaster can simply intergrates any rune he finds. Most religions are thus restricting their followers to two or three runes at most.

Also as a GM I do not make initiation test a simple set of rolls, Gloranthan in initiation are more complex than a few test. For example a Hunter of Odayla must go on a hunt and bring back the biggest animal they can, they must during this hunt confront the Great Bear (Odayla's foe and other), they may even have to hunt a mythical creature. Chances are that the hunt will take place during a fearsome Dragon Pass winter requiring tests of survival. The cost could in fact be the would be intitiates life. The strict regimes of the Yelmalio cult whittle out weakness, would be followers of Urox have to fight against chaos monsters, Orlanth Dragonslayers have to fight dragons. I think any of these is worth a couple of intergrated runic powers.

Simon

 

[TRose]

I think many if not all cults should have access to runes beside the cult runes > I mention Zorak Zoran and the fire rune ear liar. Also Waha defeated Oakfed and again should have the fire rune while its mentioned that Orlanth defeated all the other elements. Not to mention the Runes of allied Cults like the Light-bringers. Not to mention the metal Rune which to my knowledge belongs to no cult but many cults have the ability to craft magical armor from Iron, lead , copper , etc. .
I think runes and rune integration is one thing that almost all GM do different , but if you and your players are having fun , you must be doing it right.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

While I'd allow Initiates to cast Cult magic as if they had integrated the rune, through their divine connection, I would not have the cult provide an actual rune (with it's rune-touched benefit) until the character rises to the "rune-level" - Runepriest/Runelord - As an intitiate, a character is trying to emulate their god, but once they rise to the priest/lord level they are much closer to being a divine representative.

As was always the case with Iron Armour, in some cases the Cult may not always be able to provide (all) the runes for a newly promoted character, and they may need to go and complete some sort of quest/task to earn the rune before they can integrate it

 

[Deleriad]

While I'd allow Initiates to cast Cult magic as if they had integrated the rune, through their divine connection, I would not have the cult provide an actual rune (with it's rune-touched benefit) until the character rises to the "rune-level"

That's pretty much my standpoint. Admittedly you can use the initiation requirements more concretely than the default pass 5 tests but I do think that providing the integrated runes at the same time as the other initiation benefits is too much. Plus, it's probably more game fun to send characters on a separate quest in order to get a rune.