Rune magic in Glorantha

[weasel_fierce]

How do you guys handle rune / battle magic for Gloranthan games ?

As written (finding runes etc) ? (if so, how common do you make runes)

Completely detach the runes from spells ?

Something else entirely ?


My thinking is that which has been mentioned before, by someone smarter than me, to let people learn the spells tied to the runes of their cult, as well as any runes they find.
If you dont have the rune, you just have to learn the skill as a normal advanced skill.

 

[Banned Beetle]

Detach it!

 

[weasel_fierce]

Do you still keep the runes around ? (which I kinda like, as a different way of getting little tricks) or use just the battle magic ?

Do you tie it into cults or let anyone learn any spell ?

 

[CharlieMonster]

I run Rune Magic pretty much as read, with the modification of letting PCs learn the Runecasting skills for their Cult runes (but not get the Runetouched bonus unless they actually have the Rune).

I also pretty much assume that most Cults worth their salt stockpile any Cult runes they get their grubby little mitts on, for parcelling out to Initiates & Acolytes as rewards for performing major Cult missions like clearing out nests of Chaos/Undead etc, rescuing Cult officials or attacking enemy temples etc, etc...

 

[TRose]

I give initiate one free rune that belongs to their God. and getting other runes that belong to Their God then Require fairly simple quest.For example for an Orlanthi to get a Mastery rune , one quest is to defeat a Sun Worshipper, a creature of Darkness and a creature of chaos.And the first 2 can be can be formal duels or even other non lethal contests. You just have to convince the High Priest it was a worthy contest. The Local Priest might say ambushing a old and decrepit trollkin does not count, but defeating a Worshipper of Yelmalio at the harvest festuval contest does.

 

[ninthcouncil]

I'm intending on a number of house rules concerning runes:
- initiates of a cult are treated, for spell purposes, as if they have their cult runes integrated. If they also have the relevant Rune integrated, they get an additional +10% on the spellcasting roll, in addition to any effects supplied by the Rune itself.
- an integrated Rune may be replaced, for spellcasting purposes, by a "focus", which is an object inscribed with non-magical rune(s) which allows the caster to brielfy manifest the relevant rune(s) for spellcasting purposes. This works in the same way as a Rune except that the spell takes 1 more Action (and maybe 1 more MP - I haven't decided yet) to cast, reflecting the additional mental effort of consciously manifesting the rune.
- an integrated Rune may be "burnt"; as an Action, the character may release the magical properties of the Rune, gaining 2d3+3 Magic Points. Any MP's that exceed the character's POW dissipate within a minute if not used. A "burnt" rune loses all magical properties and becomes friable, crumbling to dust in the caster's hand.

I'm also looking at loosening the restrictions which make it impossible to un-integrate a Rune (other than by "burning" it, as above).

 

[weasel_fierce]

so it seems a few people have the same idea on this.

 

[Rurik]

I from the start liked the idea of integrating runes and always felt that though a 'new' concept in any Gloranthan game fit the flavor of the world well. Maybe it should have been done this way from the start.

The problem with the system is that it was not done this way from the start. I am finding that the runes required to cast a cults rune spells do not always jive with that cults actual runes.

I had been planning on using the rules as written, and even considered as going so far as to make integrating cult runes a requirement for advancing in the cult, something like to become an Acolyte you must have integrated at least one of your gods runes, and to become a priest or runelord you would need to have integrated all runes tied to your god.

I agree that most cults would 'hoard' runes specific to their cult, and probably also consider the runes of their priests and such as cult property after they die. They could provide runes as rewards for doing cult quests, or even send initiates on quests to get runes to integrate.

But do cults also hoard the runes required for their cult spells? The most obvious example is Orlanth hoarding Chaos Runes for access to skybolt, but does Urox also hoard Metal, Disorder, Truth, and Earth runes?

The concepts of tying spells to runes and tying runes to gods are both good concepts, and would work really well together in a world built around these concepts. Retrofitting the system to Glorantha has a very awkward feel to it though, as the runes associated to a cult do not always match the spells associated to that cult, and sometimes the spells associated with a cult come from runes that do not fit with the cult at all.

So I am back to undecided and very curious to see what others put forth on this thread.

 

[Magistus]

I see no reason why a cult would not hoard other runes.

 

[ninthcouncil]

I'll admit I hadn't yet looked closely at the way the runes and the cults interacted. If necessary I'll just drop the connection between runes and spellcasting, and rename "rune magic" (that name was never a good idea anyway, given previous usage).

And let's face it, in Glorantha, anything involving the chaos rune is bad mojo. Skybolt needs to change to Air, if it is retained at all. It feels more like a Divine spell to me anyway.

 

[TRose]

As far as hoarding other runes, like metal ect. I think some of it should be based on cults myths. For example myths say Waha defeated the elemental demons(Except for darkness if I remember right) so Waha would have access to a hoard of runes from the basic elements. And of course you could maybe try to earn some from allied cults that had a few stored.
I do like the idea of sending my players on quest to get runes better then having them trip over them as random loot. For example for a Fire Rune for a worshipper of Waha, perhaps they have to go to a shaman of Oakfed and and prove that Waha is worthy enough to still be Oafeds Lord.

 

[gamesmeister]

Yeah I'm still undecided on this one too.

There's no reason why a cult wouldn't hoard runes of other types, but it would likely be a lot harder for the cult to have access to those runes in the first place. Orlanthi living in the shadow of Stormwalk Mountain should have no problem finding Motion runes for their Mobility spell, they'll probably be tripping over them, whereas Shadow runes for Cover of Night will be pretty rare in that area. So while they'd hoard any they got, they would only be presented to high ranking cultists due to their scarcity, or possibly as rewards for acts of extreme devotion.

 

[Rurik]

I actually like the idea of having to quest for your cult runes. Here we are at version 4 or 5 of RQ depending on how you count it, and it is the first version you can actually quest for runes.

Brilliant!*

One of the strengths of playing RQ in Glorantha is how just living in the world creates adventures and good gaming on it's own. Players are always having to do this for their cult or need to do this to learn that, etc. etc. Multiple sessions can be consumed just by players trying to do the things they want to do to improve their characters, such as capture this spirit to bind it to that widget, and so on. Having to quest for cult runes just adds game to the game, if you know what I mean.

I honestly haven't gone back and extensively analyzed the issue I brought up in my previous post about cult spells being tied to non cult runes (or the converse, cults NOT having any spells tied to their runes) - so I'm not sure how big a "problem" it is. But a couple of examples have come to me readily, Orlanth/Skybolt/Chaos Rune being the obvious one, but there are others.

I mean it works, but it feels wrong considering what we have come to learn about Gloranthan Gods over the past decades. I think the whole relationship between Cult/Rune/Runespells is a kickass concept - I just think it is kind of awkward in how it has been retrofitted to the big G.

* As much as I like Guinness, the "Brilliant" commercials are anything but - I find them pretty obnoxious actually.

 

[soltakss]

But do cults also hoard the runes required for their cult spells? The most obvious example is Orlanth hoarding Chaos Runes for access to skybolt, but does Urox also hoard Metal, Disorder, Truth, and Earth runes?

Clearly, no Orlanthi would use the Chaos Rune for anything and it makes no sense at all for Orlanth to have a Chaos Spell as one of its cult spells.

The solution is to allow Skybolt to be cast using the Air/Storm Rune and this is the version that Orlanth gets. It's halfway between Lightning and Thunderbolt anyway.

I never really liked Skybolt being a Chaos Rune spell in the first place, it makes no real sense.

Initiates should really be able to cast their Cult Spells regardless of having Integrated the runes. Alternatively, each cult should havbe its own Cult Rune (Orlanth Rune, Stormbull Rune etc.) and the initiate can integrate that rune to get access to cult Runespells.

 

[Exubae]

The solution is to allow Skybolt to be cast using the Air/Storm Rune and this is the version that Orlanth gets. It's halfway between Lightning and Thunderbolt anyway.

This kind of continues on from Soltakss' idea.

Currently in our test games we've settled on allowing characters to cast all rune spells of the associated runes of the cult at the characters Theology score if they do not have the integrated runes.
The Characters do not gain the benefit of integration.

Where runes do not match the cult spells, alternative cult runes are associated to the those spell- if no feasaible runes link to the spell, the spell is replaced with another.

It might be an idea to produce a table and expand the runess that spells associated-
I.e.
Death rune ... disruption, Blade sharp, Bludgeon.
Motion rune ... Clear Path
Air rune ... Shimmer and Skybolt
Harmony rune ... Emotion.
Earth ... Endurance
etc

That aside, the gods are source of the Runes, their cultists should know the likely location of Runes in both innerworld and God plane sites through myth and theology - it does makes sense to have a quest as part of acceptance of priest/lord hood to retrieve the cult runes (either to integrate if they don't have them or present them to the cult if they do).

 

[soltakss]

This kind of continues on from Soltakss' idea.

Currently in our test games we've settled on allowing characters to cast all rune spells of the associated runes of the cult at the characters Theology score if they do not have the integrated runes.
The Characters do not gain the benefit of integration.

That's probably the easiest way of doing it. So, your Lore (Specific Theology) becomes your chance of casting ALL cult spells, whether Runic or Divine. Quick, easy and simple. It shouldn't overpower things either.

 

[Banned Beetle]

I'm gonna skip the runic assosiation all together, taking it back to spirit magic, with a casting skill equal to POW x5. Keeping the runes for the benefit they give when integrated (with some modifications), a bit like attunable crystals. Easier to work with, and less major changes for my old players when we jump between 2nd and 3rd Age groups.

Trif.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I started this before Christmas, but only just got round to finishing it off...

The rules for Runemagic in MRQ are very customisable to give the flavour of magic you prefer, although this can be slightly obscured if you take them to literally - as written they suggest a platform-style computer game, where mysterious blobs of energy appear almost at random, and if you pick one up it grants you unusual powers. However, I don't find that approach very interesting or Gloranthan, so lets look at some alternatives.

Runes as Powered Crystals

Runes are described as being formed from the spilt blood of the Gods, and they require users to attune them before they can be used, which makes them sound like powered crystals from previous editions of RuneQuest*. In order to use them like this, and to return to the previously observed Gloranthan truth that everyone is capable of learning magic I'd propose the following:-

All Characters can learn Runecasting skills from their Cults/Schools/Guilds/Other Organisations (hereafter "Cults") and use these to cast (MRQ) Runespells whether or not they posess a Rune Crystal. They will, however require a focus for each spell. This may be a tattoo, an amulet, a medicine bundle, a wand, or an inscription on an appropriate item

Each Cult should have a list of which Runes it can teach RUnecasting for** (There may be two rates - one for the Runes associated with the Cult, and one for other runes they can teach for a price) and also a list of Runes they are forbidden to learn (eg Darkness runes for Yelmalions, or Death for Chalana Arroy).

If a character finds and attunes a Rune Crystal they get the benefit of integration listed in the Rules, and aso a bonus to the associated Runecasting skill (This might vary from crystal to crystal - a small, weak crystal giving only +5 or +10, a powerful crystal giving
+100% (So you only fail to cast the spell on a 96+) - It is generally not possible to tell what the power of a crystal is without attuning it first).

A Rune Crystal can only be attuned by one character at a time, and the crystal must remain in the characters posession to provide the bonus.

A character can only attune a limited number of crystals*** (and possibly only one of any particular Rune at once?) I'd also forbid the attuning of opposed Runes (eg Movement and Stasis, Life & Death etc) unless the character belongs to a Cult that embodies both runes.


Runes as a harvestable source of Energy

You could also treat Runes as a harvestable source of magic, a little like Ars Magica Vis, Under this paradigm, certain places are known to generate Runes of a particular type on a regular basis. Most of these will be under the control of Cults or Schools - They will often be shrines or temples and will, for example, produce the Runes on the cults Holy or High Holy days. This means that characters joining a Cult (probably at the initiate or equivalent level - Lay members are generally not committed enough) can be provided with one or more runes automatically, giving characters access to magic without requiring large amounts of "free" runes to be floating around.

Under this model, Godlearner Sorcerors and their schools will be happy (keen even) to trade Runes they can readily obtain for those that others have to spare. Traditonal theists, however will consider their runes to be more of a holy relic, and be less keen to swap and change...


Worship as a source of Rune Power

A slight varient of the above, working in a similar way, but without the actual Runes.

Voiroff suggested that something like this was in an earlier draft of Gods of Glorantha.

This is my take on it...

Characters who join a Cult at the initiate (or equivalent) or above level are automatically attuned to the Rune(s) of that cult for purposes of spell casting. (They do not get the benefits of integration unless they actually obtain an instance of the Rune). Obviously they will lose this attunement if they leave the cult, unless they have also got the benefit from another source (either membership of another cult with the Rune, possession of the rune, or Nysalor Illunination****)

Relinquishing Runes

Some of the following discussion is based on suggestions and conversation both on and off the playtest list following Steve Perrin's original draft of the Runemagic rules...

The one problem with using Runes to provide magic, especially in a "magic rich" world like Glorantha is that if all the characters opponents have Runes, and the characters are able to defeat them, then at the end of the adventure, the characters will all have more runes than they started with, thus being more powerful. This means their next opponents will need to be more powerful, which means more runes, which means, when they are defeated the characters will start to experience an exponential growth in Power.

Additionally, in RQ, traditionally one has often been encouraged to ransom your enemies rather than killing them outright - but if the only way to get their integrated runes is to kill them then carrying runes is equivalent to signing your own death warrant...

This leads to a couple of thoughts

Obviously a character can choose to relinquish a Rune - undoing the effects of integration - This may cost POW and/or require a roll

Maybe if you seperate a character from the physical representation of the Rune they have integrated they lose their connection to it (Maybe not immediately or automatically)

Killing a character may not immediately return the power to the Rune object.

Maybe when a character dies with runes integrated those runes dissipate, so characters don't automatically gain all the runes their opponent had if they kill them

Maybe the dissipated runes reappear where they were first found (Triggering a "Rune-rush" when the owner of a famous and powerful rune dies)

Footnotes

* RQII/III had two types of magical crystal, formed from the blood of Gods. Power Storage crystals, which one could use to hold a certain number of Magic Points above and beyond your own POW, and Powered Crystals which required attuning but then provided a specific
benefit, for instance doubling the effective MP used if the spell were resisted.

** I'd also rework the spell lists here, both to realign spells back to their appropriate (Gloranthan) Rune, and also, possibly, to provide some spells through more than one Rune

*** probably linked to POW?

**** An Illuminate is able to leave cults without fear of the spirits of reprisal, so I assume they can also retain their runic affiliations even if they would appear contradictory...

 

[TRose]

I can see the same spell at times being cast with different runes then those listed. but maybe with slights differences. For example take disruption. I can see a fire using cults casting a similiar spell using the fire rune, or a storm cult using the air rune. With the fire rune you would burn the person as he casting a small fire bolt at you and the air rune would be electricity.

 

[Yoda300]

The rules for Runemagic in MRQ are very customisable to give the flavour of magic you prefer, although this can be slightly obscured if you take them to literally - as written they suggest a platform-style computer game, where mysterious blobs of energy appear almost at random, and if you pick one up it grants you unusual powers. However, I don't find that approach very interesting or Gloranthan, so lets look at some alternatives.

Yes. It sucks. I see two problems.
First, the stone (or whatever) holding the rune has the emblem of the rune on it. Imagine, the players have just finished to kill a gnome. Time stop. A little demon with a pencil comes up, mumbling about adventurers always making more work for him. Then he consults his manual and draw a nice earth rune on a rock and toss it on the remains of the gnome. Time resume. Players find the rune. More Discworld than Glorantha I think.
Of course, you can say that the support of the rune has no emblem, and the power is within the object: "in the remains of the salamandre, you find an ember cristal which glows with power".

Second, and it's more serious, it was well known that the rune system in previous edition of RQ was a godlearnerism, used to explain the monomyth (see, two gods with the same runes, so there are the same god). It was said this was flawed. In HQ ( :evil: ), every deity, hero or whatever has his own rune.
Now, the rune magic of MRQ use those same rune invented by the Godlearners. Does it mean something ? Have they messed things so much that their own vision of the universe is leaking from "somewhere " (hero plane ?) to Glorantha. Moreover, cults now hoard and use these runes, wich allows the GL to pillage their myths. That sounds bad, and need clarification.