Rules Question (Combat)

[Melkor]

Hi folks,

Just picked up the Runequest II rulebook, and have been reading through combat tonight.

I had a quick question regarding the use of the Evade Combat Action. Under the description of Evade on p.84, it states: "The CA available on the characters next Strike Rank following an evade attempt cannot be used to make an Attack."

Does this mean that the evade caused you to lose your next Combat Action entirely, or that you can still use your next Combat Action, but that action can only be an action option that is NOT an actual attack?

Thanks.

 

[GoingDown]

I think you can use your next CA for something else than attacking, like closing or casting.

That is the way we are playing.

 

[ThatGuy]

Me/us too.

 

[PhilHibbs]

How's that working out? I think there should be a manoeuvre that allows a subsequent attack, maybe it should be a critical-only manoeuvre. Riposte only allows you to use a defending weapon or shield. So, Fafhrd is ok, but the Grey Mouser is a bit stuffed.

 

[ThatGuy]

OK. It makes evading not a very good option. Parrying is far superior. I have seen some posts that state that evading is bodily throwing yourself out of the way, and that is much more how it plays out in games.

There are certainly other things a PC (or GM) can do with the non-attacking CA, but he can't, well, attack. And you can't score if you cant shoot, so to speak.

The additional burden of having to beat the attack roll as an opposed roll makes the evading even less alluring...and successful. So creating a dodgy codger is not done thru evade skill (I don't think), it has to be a dodgy way of interpreting his parry. At least that's my opinion, considering how I've seen it play out in game.

It is necessary to evade when getting charged, or you don't have a weapon, or you aren't attacking anyway, and there is always the CM issue with evade as well...

 

[Loz]

OK. It makes evading not a very good option. Parrying is far superior.

You're right broadly and when referring only to close combat. Where Evade comes into its own is against missile fire if you don't have a shield prepared or at all, or in circumstances where parry isn't an appropriate option (like getting out of the way of a falling chunmk of masonry). Evasion takes a lot of effort; its a risk and a gamble - most certainly against a close combat opponent. Making that sideways lunge to avoid a blade disorientates and means you lose the initiative to counter-attack (hence the way the rule works, which you interpret correctly).

 

[PhilHibbs]

It's now clear to me that the "can't attack on next action" only applies to evading missile or charge attacks. Using it like old-school Dodge is fine, you just pick the Outmanoeuvre combat action and then no-one can attack you if you out-evade them. Very nice.

 

[PhilHibbs]

On a similar point... every hit that lands gets a Manoeuvre. How is that working out in practice? I'm thinking the most common is going to be "choose location".

 

[Ultor]

On a similar point... every hit that lands gets a Manoeuvre. How is that working out in practice? I'm thinking the most common is going to be "choose location".

Which is why every opponent in my games now has heavy armor on chest, abdomen and head, as in real life. My PCs have started getting creative after going through a phase of choosing locations, and in a fight with some heavily armored broos* in our last session used trip, stun, overextend and blind opponent all to great effect. They were probably within a couple of rounds of a Total Player Kill until they realized that stopping the enemy hitting them was essential. I was very impressed with the way they rallied - the tank and the sorcerer were both unconscious and dying at one point - and it was creative use of CMs that enabled the rally - plus a Critical on a divine casting that allowed an extra use of the Heal Wound spell...

* For those of you familiar with the old Big Rubble set, it was the Mutation Gang

 

[ThatGuy]

Another favorite is "Impale," but it does have it's dangers- most notably never getting your weapon back.

"Stun" is the other favorite.

But those are not the most effective in all cases, and disarm can be, in my opinion, the single most effective fight killer, unless an opponent has a real unarmed skill.

But overall, I have found that the maneuver for almost every attack is fine. It keeps things interesting and strategic, instead of just dice rolling. Remember, a successful dodge doesn't allow for a CM choice, and a successful parry negates most attacks, so an attack that even gets a CM can feel like a victory itself in some games (especially when your dice are bad).

 

[Deleriad]

It's now clear to me that the "can't attack on next action" only applies to evading missile or charge attacks. Using it like old-school Dodge is fine, you just pick the Outmanoeuvre combat action and then no-one can attack you if you out-evade them. Very nice.

The can't attack on next action is, unless it has been changed, specifically meant to include using Evade against any kind of attack including close combat attacks. The idea is that your weapon skill includes the art of getting out of the way of attacks. Evade is for emergencies only as you deliberately throw yourself out of the way at the expense of making yourself off balance.

 

[PhilHibbs]

The can't attack on next action is, unless it has been changed, specifically meant to include using Evade against any kind of attack including close combat attacks. The idea is that your weapon skill includes the art of getting out of the way of attacks. Evade is for emergencies only as you deliberately throw yourself out of the way at the expense of making yourself off balance.

Well, I'm definitely house-ruling that one then. It may not be realistic, but Dodge has always been a viable option in RuneQuest, and there are plenty of fantasy archetypes that can't be done without a functioning dodge option - Grey Mouser, Shadowspawn, any kung fu character (Pai Mei, Kung Fu Kid, etc.), and Outmanoeuvre doesn't really cut it because your opponent gets to know up front that they might as well not bother trying to attack this round.

 

[Ultor]

We're playing that Dodging is an intrinsic part of your Combat Style. So if you want to parry, fine, but if you want to Dodge as part of your maneuver then that's fine too. It's whatever makes narrative or cinematic sense.

 

[Deleriad]

We're playing that Dodging is an intrinsic part of your Combat Style. So if you want to parry, fine, but if you want to Dodge as part of your maneuver then that's fine too. It's whatever makes narrative or cinematic sense.

That would be an interesting combat style. You could have swashbuckling styles such as "Rapier & Evade"

That would allow you to use the skill to attack and parry as normal but also to allow you to evade with dignity and still attack on the next CA. In game terms it would be 'balanced' because Evade is an all or nothing opposed roll and you have to be a *lot* better than an opponent to be confident that your evade would work.

I like the idea.

 

[PhilHibbs]

That would be an interesting combat style. You could have swashbuckling styles such as "Rapier & Evade"

"Rapier & Dodge" would be a better name, as Evade refers to a different skill. "Kung Fu" would also include dodging. Dodgers are still disadvantaged due to shield users getting a bonus combat action, but that's ok.

...although a style with dodge as its defensive half instead of parry gets the advantage that you don't have to worry about weapon sized. So maybe dodge is overpowered in this respect? Was this a deliberate design decision, to deprecate dodge because it is better than parry?

 

[Mugen]

...although a style with dodge as its defensive half instead of parry gets the advantage that you don't have to worry about weapon sized. So maybe dodge is overpowered in this respect? Was this a deliberate design decision, to deprecate dodge because it is better than parry?

If you treat attack vs dodge as an opposed skill contest, I think it will be on par with parry, as it will be a more risky option.

 

[Deleriad]

...although a style with dodge as its defensive half instead of parry gets the advantage that you don't have to worry about weapon sized. So maybe dodge is overpowered in this respect? Was this a deliberate design decision, to deprecate dodge because it is better than parry?

If you treat attack vs dodge as an opposed skill contest, I think it will be on par with parry, as it will be a more risky option.

Exactly. This way you can probably dodge a big, clumsy troll with a maul but it would be distinctly risky against a skilled swordmaster. I personally would only allow it with light, 1h weapons. People have occasionally commented on the weakness of 1H fighting skills so this would give a different option.

 

[Mugen]

Exactly. This way you can probably dodge a big, clumsy troll with a maul but it would be distinctly risky against a skilled swordmaster. I personally would only allow it with light, 1h weapons. People have occasionally commented on the weakness of 1H fighting skills so this would give a different option.

What about allowing 1 extra combat action per round for 1H fighting, that may only be used as a dodge ? This would reduce the gap with other fighting styles.

 

[PhilHibbs]

What about allowing 1 extra combat action per round for 1H fighting, that may only be used as a dodge ? This would reduce the gap with other fighting styles.

There aren't really any styles that just have a single 1h weapon though. I like the idea of dodge being part of some combat styles, like the "rapier and dodge" suggestion. Pretty much all martial arts styles would include dodge. I don't think it needs a bonus combat option though, anyone going for a dodging-style should probably have 3 combat options anyway which should be enough - if you're a klutz, use a shield.

Shields don't count against initiative like armour does, do they? I think they should. Probably not as their full armour value though.

 

[Rasta]

I am personally glad they did away with dodge. I've always liked a more realistic feel to combat.

I think the evade skill simulates real life style combat a lot better.

If you look soldiers and warriors in history, most use shields or two handed weapons.