Rule Doh! on my part

[Larac]

In the Reaction part of the rules it says,


"A unit may only make one Reaction in every turn, no matter how many times an enemy moves close by or shoots it.
If a unit is in cover and is reacting to a Charge action, it may make the Reaction after the target has moved but before any Close Combat dice are rolled."

I missed this the first 4-10 readings, not sure how.
This is very powerful.

What happens if;

My Marines are defending a rubbled building, and are in cover.

The MEA sends a unint into HtH with the Marines, The Marines Choose Shoot Reaction, and do enough Suppression to Supress the MEA unit?

Do they still get Close Combat?

Do they make it to HtH Range?
If not where do they end up?

The Suppression says:
"If a unit is allocated at least as many damage dice in a single Shoot action as it had models then it will immediately lose its next action, and may
only Move as a reaction."

It says a supressed Unit can Move as a Reaction,
But it says you can not react to a reaction.
"Finally, you can never react to a Reaction!"

Using the CC rules, I would stop them at 2" away from the Defenders.
The thought is the Charge stalled.
But I have no idea if that is correct.

If it is covered I missed it too, sorry.

Thanks
Lee

 

[Mr Evil]

well the mea would first have to ctivate, and stop within 10" befor you react

so your marines shoot at the ememy supressing them, the mea next action is to effectivly hit the deck or stall.

thier probaly in shock of the dead bodies, and thinking next turn they should have done a diversionary tactic to make the marines use up their reaction so the charge would have been more effective, and stand around to argue about this.

this is the fun of BF-evo bad tactics are very punishing.

now if you had them out of site by end of their first action but within 10" the narines could move as a reaction to make the charge they invisge fail, but the marines decide to hold fast. next action by mea is to charge, they make the distance and complete their combat attacks, after attacks modlea are pushed 2" away from each other as per rules, marines have 2 reactions here move away or shoot them, marines decide to shoot them, and supress them, next turn marines cn act but the mea unit may only react to their actions by moving.

hope that makes some sence

 

[Alexb83]

Hmm - questions about the question.

Does the unit have to be able to see the enemy (have LOS) in order to react? Certainly they would need LOS to make a shoot reaction?

If so, surely the MEA could use their first action to move close enough to charge on their second action (at 1/2 speed through cover).

Really though, CC isn't something you should be seeing much at all in modern combat, let alone future combat.

 

[Larac]

Well clearing a building with +2 increase in Target and Kill, leave only CC some times.

Every war "they" say Close Combat is a thing of the past, and so far every time "they" are wrong.

Take this as the turn.

The MEA Action 1
Get close enough for a charge
Marines pass this chance at a Reaction as the MEA are not in LOS and would rather shoot than scoot

Action 2 Charge

The Marines because of the Charge vs Cover get to React Before CC is rolled.

This is where I find a hole, the rules really do not say what happens, if the Marine Reaction Suppresses the MEA at this point, what happens.

The quotes in the first part are copied from the rules sheet.

Mr. Evil your play through would be correct I think without the Cover.
But it allows the Reaction BEFORE CC.


Though I may be wrong, that is what I read. As I said I missed that rule at least 10 times, but I can see this happen in a game.

Thanks
Lee

 

[nezeray]

I believe that your MEA would get into melee range of the USMC, get shot all to Allah, and take a swing at the USMC. Their attack is part of the charge "action". So you'd complete this action. Your Next turn you'd loss your first action.

Hopefully the advanced rules have grenades, so you could just chuck a grenade to suppress whoever's inside, then rush in to CC.

Nezeray

 

[Ben2]

I've never seen close combat happen in a game of BF:Evo I've played. The only time I've seen it in SW:Evo is with Jedi. Otherwise you always get firefights, as shooting is almost always better than CC.
SST:Evo will see it lots though.
Against USMC in a building, MEA infantry will always hit them with RPGs and AKs. Charging them is suicide. Placing a shaped charge on the building with Fedayeen might be viable though.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I've never seen close combat happen in a game of BF:Evo I've played. The only time I've seen it in SW:Evo is with Jedi. Otherwise you always get firefights, as shooting is almost always better than CC.
SST:Evo will see it lots though.
Against USMC in a building, MEA infantry will always hit them with RPGs and AKs. Charging them is suicide. Placing a shaped charge on the building with Fedayeen might be viable though.

I have seen it a few times but yes, it is very rare - there is something about charging a set up machine gun that is not too healthy!

 

[Kristovich]

I have seen it a few times but yes, it is very rare - there is something about charging a set up machine gun that is not too healthy!

The wall of lead coming at you perhaps? :lol:

Indeed, I'd take my chances shooting rather than running towards the enemy.

 

[Larac]

I believe that your MEA would get into melee range of the USMC, get shot all to Allah, and take a swing at the USMC. Their attack is part of the charge "action". So you'd complete this action. Your Next turn you'd loss your first action.

Hopefully the advanced rules have grenades, so you could just chuck a grenade to suppress whoever's inside, then rush in to CC.

Nezeray

I can see it that way as well, and that is my problem, both ways seem to work in the rules, because of the conflicting rules.

Certian wording makes it readable many ways, so a Designer Answer to how they see it working is neede IMHO.

Matt this could use an Official Stamp here please.

I know no one else seems to see CC happening, but in a hostage issue, taking out the bad guys, while not shooting up the hostages could be a problem.



Ideas for building fighting.

Flashbang would be great, something like.
Flashbangs used in a convined space, will suppress all in the radius of effect, the lost action will be the Reaction if the Unit/s in the are still could normaly react, or thier next action.

Note some units may have equipment to defeat FlashBang suppress effects.


Frag Gernades 1d6+1 in a 1" LZ, and 1d6-1 in a 2" LZ
Used in a convined area, Each dice counts as 2 for Suppress Effects, if the Target is Suppresed then they lose thier reaction if they had one, or the next action if they did not.

Lee

 

[Mr Evil]

charge actions are designed to rout enemy from cover, read the rules please guys its very well presented, so much so none of this conversation should evan exist.

"When a charge action is made, you may move your modles up to thier move score towrds an enemy unit. if you succeed in touching the enemy modle with one of yours, they immediatly fight in close combat."

thats from second paragraph of charge actions.

basicly the attack is part of the move, at the end of the attack modles are then moved apart, and enemy may react, after that a unit may use its second action if it has one to recharge the unit providing its not suppressed, if its supressed it looses its second action., and their subsequent reaction may only be move.

hope that helps, by the way these rules are better presented and exsplained than those in SST, i have to say and make alot more sence.

 

[Larac]

Here are the rules Copied from the PDF

Some Caps added on words that make it seem to me there is room for more than 2 ways it could be done in this case, that causes problems in games, and it would be nice to know the answer from the source.

How the Designers wanted it to work vs what the collection rules are worded.


RULES
"If a unit is in cover and is reacting to a Charge action, it may make the Reaction after the target has moved but BEFORE any Close Combat dice are rolled."

"If a unit is allocated at least as many damage dice in a single Shoot action as it had models then it will IMMEDIATELY lose its next action, and may only Move as a reaction."

"Finally, you can never react to a Reaction!"


The Main ways I can see this read are

#1
The Unit in cover Moves.
If this gets all Models out of Base to Base, Is There a CC attack at all?
I do not know this answer either.



#2
The Unit in Cover Shoots.
What ever is left of the Charging Unit, gets to CC as normal, then one side gets pushed back 2". Then IF the Shooting caused Suppression the Charging unit will lose its next action.

#3
The Unit in Cover Shoots.
The Charging Unit is IMMEDIATELY Suppressed.
No CC is rolled the Charging Unit is placed 2" from the Shooting unit as if it had lost CC. It can do nothing else as You Can Not React to a Reaction.

#4
The Unit In Cover Shoots.
The Charging Unit gets to CC with all models then the Shot and CC Killed Models are removed.

I am sorry if the rules seem clear and perfect to everyone else on the board, but I do see gaps, I thought at first these were the Lite rules, So I was less worred about pounding on them as these would be replaced, with Full rules in the Book, I have been told that these are the rules, the book is extras and force comp, and campaign, but the Rules are what we have already.

I am sure someone else reading those sections and looking at the issue might come up with even more ways to read it, perhaps the Designer had something else in mind as well.

My gut feeling is #2 is close to being what was intended for the issue.

But I can see the wording leading folks to #3.

As for #1, I just do not know.
The Charge would cause CC but the Move Reaction keeps the Charge from connecting.

My guess is No CC, but again I can see it either way.

I really am not trying to argue, it is just that these are issues that will occur at some time, when there are more than a few 100 looking at these rules, to hopefuly more than a few thousand.

People will read the rules and understand them based on the wording and past gaming exp, this will cause when a rule is left a bit open to be read many ways, more so when the rules that cover the issue is spread out in more than one section of the rules.

I am just trying to make sure that the answers to questions like this are covered and that way we all be using the same resolution.


Lee

 

[Mongoose Alex]

1. Situation: The unit being charged reacts by moving away.
Result: The charging unit do not end up in base contact with any models, therefore no close combat takes place.

2. Situation: The unit being charged reacts by shooting and will do enough damage to suppress the charging unit.
Result: Anyone from the charging unit left alive is immediatly suppressed, and will also miss their next action.

Charging troops in cover is clearly a Bad Idea. However, it does have tactical uses if your advancing soldiers can weather the hail of fire (they a large or tough unit, or there are few that can fire in cover), as they can either engage in close combat and claim the cover for themselves, or force the defenders out - which will make them more vulnerable to other units. Cover maketh the infantry in this game and anything you can do to deprive them is worthwhile!

Incidentally, because of the way the basic soldier is statted in this game (he doesn't like to get shot), this will be quite a rare occurance in Battlefield Evo. However, it will be far more common in Starship Troopers Evo. . .

 

[Mr Evil]

yup have to add as the attack is part of the charge action, so would not be effected by supression.


and i totaly forgot this rule in my example
"If a unit is in cover and is reacting to a Charge action, it may make the Reaction after the target has moved but BEFORE any Close Combat dice are rolled."

but i think alex has cleared it up so i wont recover it.

 

[Larac]

I disagree that is as clear cut as you say it is.

But I will not argue that point any more.


The only thing clear to me is, that the rules are considered perfect and even the hint that something could be better explained or worded is not going to be allowed.

I will cease asking questions on the rules, as it must be my lack of ability that cause the questions to occur.

I wish Mongosse luck, and Good Gaming to the rest of you.

Lee

 

[Mr Evil]

I disagree that is as clear cut as you say it is.

But I will not argue that point any more.


The only thing clear to me is, that the rules are considered perfect and even the hint that something could be better explained or worded is not going to be allowed.

I will cease asking questions on the rules, as it must be my lack of ability that cause the questions to occur.

I wish Mongosse luck, and Good Gaming to the rest of you.

Lee

keep it simple thats the key