RPG Realms has old Traveller Stuff for Sale

[GamerDude]

Legally binding contracts can be written or verbal... yes there was a day when two people saying "Yes I agree to 'X' " and then shaking hands on it was a verbal contract.

But it varies between cultures.

Writen ones can be as simple as a few emails back and forth stating the terms and then one last one acknowledging those terms plus accepting them. They can also be as complex as the License Agreement that comes with any software product from Blizzard or Microsoft, possibly longer.

AIUI, there has to be agreement between the parties involved. Doesn't matter if you didn't understand what was said that you agreed to, or if you didn't read the contract over before signing it, etc.

I'm not privy to anything in MJD's situation except what he says so I'm not even going to make an attempt at saying what his legal position is. I do know that, in what business I've had with Marc he's always been cool easy to deal with etc. (even with the "empty hex jump" debate when I asked him) but license questions, but business? nope have no clue.

Martin, PM sent!

 

[The Dark Avenger]

Got the PM, need to think about that.

The problem is a symptom of what eventually caused me to just give up trying to work with FFE, ie on Traveller. On several occasions I asked for information that as a licensee I needed, didn't get it. Projects were unnecessarily delayed because FFE just forgot about questions that I asked. Promises were made to improve matters but it never happened.

Time was when Marc was easy to deal with, for me at least. Indeed, that bit me in the ass because Marc told me I didn't need a written license. We worked on a handshake. But then I ended up in dispute with QLI, who had a written license and I didn't. I ended up asking for clarifications that never came and go beaten around the head with license terms that I had no information to counter.

 

[The Dark Avenger]

There was no oficial communication from FFE when the license ended. The announcement was made by Hunter Gordon of QLI (yes, a rival licensee) who came into the Avenger forum and told the world. He did the same at SJG, but there his announement turned out to be untrue.

We got information we needed from Mongoose in the end, but that was after wasting money on projects that no longer had time to reach the market. This was one of several occasions where lack of licensor/licensee communication at the FFE end cost me money. It's also a shocking lack of regard for me and for Avenger.

Sadly, it's a pattern that has been repeated over and over again, until I eventually got sick of it all and quit. That, too, cost me money in various ways but it was long past time I cut my losses.

 

[The Dark Avenger]

Time was, not so very long ago, that I used to be very polite and British about all this. Largely because I wanted to avoid offending Marc and damaging the good relationship we'd had for many years.

Eventually I realised that politely accepting being messed about in a way that cost me money (and feels pretty contemptuous) was stupid, not a good way to make a living, and in any case did nothing to avoid the same things happening again.

Neither, honestly, does being openly critical of FFE but it does make me feel a little better... and also hopefully avoids the potential for folks to misunderstand what happened. Most notably, none of this was the fault of Mongoose. They did their best to sort out some of the problems, but ultimately I'd had enough by that point.

Sadly, I'm too honourable for my own good, and too honest to play games about all this. Although FFE never actually told me about the license sunset, I know about it so I have to consider it binding. They never answered my queries (then or now) about exactly what it meant, but I have a general idea so I feel that I must comply.

Avenger always observed our obligations and agreements (as we understood them to be; sometimes we were required to guess). That cost us, but I'm not capable of acting any other way.

 

[Emperor Herdan]

.(snip)... Sadly, I'm too honourable for my own good, and too honest to play games about all this. Although FFE never actually told me about the license sunset, I know about it so I have to consider it binding. They never answered my queries (then or now) about exactly what it meant, but I have a general idea so I feel that I must comply.
.(another snip)...

That is because you've always been a gentleman... and (removed comment having no useful purpose). Anyway. If those 1248 books are in your posession legally (given as gifts, promotions or whatnot etc), then whatever you do with your property is up to you (within legal limits... My Canadian background poking through).

So.. if you are so moved to sell them, let us know when and how to purchase them...(smile) (I guess I'm about 5th? 6th in line now?)

Take care

E. Herdan

 

[Dave Chase]

If you sell them and you get any flak from FFE please let me know (PM).

IANAL, but I know some things that will help.

But then, what are the chances of you actually recieving contact from Marc (FFE) if you can't get a response even now.

Dave Chase

 

[Vile]

Legally binding contracts can be written or verbal...

True, but a verbal contract with no written record is legally unenforceable. Always get it in writing.

 

[The Dark Avenger]

Marc hasn't bothered to reply, as usual.

Mongoose and my other sources indicate that I can sell privately owned books (and If I'd know this sooner, I'd have sold quite a few instead of giving them away over the past few years).

So I'll be making them available very soon. I'm off to a seminar any minute (Advanced Hurting People if you care) so it'll be a day or so before I sort out details.

 

[Jame Rowe]

So.. if you are so moved to sell them, let us know when and how to purchase them...(smile) (I guess I'm about 5th? 6th in line now?)

Take care

E. Herdan

I am now extending the line a bit further. Though I probably wouldn't be able to get any (if I get the chance I'll just go ahead, jump in and spend the money).

 

[AndrewW]

I am now extending the line a bit further. Though I probably wouldn't be able to get any (if I get the chance I'll just go ahead, jump in and spend the money).

Maybe everybody could do a Dexterity, or perhaps Athletics (Co-ordination) check to see who grabs them first¿

 

[Jame Rowe]

Maybe everybody could do a Dexterity, or perhaps Athletics (Co-ordination) check to see who grabs them first¿

Sure!

Jame Rowe rolls 2d6 +0 (skill) -1 (Dex) = 4 -1 =3. Damn!

 

[atpollard]

Maybe everybody could do a Dexterity, or perhaps Athletics (Co-ordination) check to see who grabs them first¿

Sure!

Jame Rowe rolls 2d6 +0 (skill) -1 (Dex) = 4 -1 =3. Damn!

So far that is the highest roll!

 

[atpollard]

Maybe everybody could do a Dexterity, or perhaps Athletics (Co-ordination) check to see who grabs them first¿

Sure!

Jame Rowe rolls 2d6 +0 (skill) -1 (Dex) = 4 -1 =3. Damn!

So far that is the highest roll!

 

[captainjack23]

RPG Realms has some old Judgest Guild Sectors and some TNE:1248 stuff they are selling.

I don't know the legalities of this, since I thought Mongoose and FFE were the only legal licenses right now (well GURPS too).

Matt, is this site legal or should we ignore/report it?

I thought that I'd answer the original post, rather than the discussion of various issues that followed it.

I took a look at the site - every single one of the QLI items are hardcopy, not PDF. All of them.

This discussion of what the license says and everything else is pretty much as relevant to this situation as it would be to a used bookstore. Which is to say, irrelevant. The books are existing stock, and are the property of whoever bought them who is free to dispose of them as they wish; and unless someone has proof that they were physically manufactured after the publisher lost the license, or were sold thereafter by the licensee, there is no issue, legal or ethical.

I'm pretty sure that our local store has at least one copy of it (T20) that has never sold, and one or two used items.
Unless one is are going to buy up every existing copy, one is going to have to deal with seeing them for sale. If it's any consolation, the persons responsible for the T20/QLI debacle see not one penny more from the product; just the owners of the books, who one assumes, bought them in good faith.

Relax.

 

[GamerDude]

...
Relax.

Wait, you give us such sage words of wisdom, and then close with that? What are you daft there man!? How can we relax when the greatest controversy since the "blue pet rock / green pet rock" fiasco in the 70's?

*j/k* Always fun to teas the captain... unless he's inclined to space you out the M-Drive exhaust nozzles. Harsh man, harsh.

 

[The Dark Avenger]

I'm pretty sure the Judges' Guild materials are PDF.

 

[captainjack23]

I'm pretty sure the Judges' Guild materials are PDF.

Well, his email on the boards [http://www.rpgrealms.com/community/blogs/141] there said he had found a bunch and was selling them at cover price, so I assumed that he was talking hardcopy.

Actually looking at them [http://www.rpgrealms.com/catalog/217] I can see that of the 15 offered, exactly 2 are PDF. The rest are explicitly hardcopies (unless someone has a way to produce saddle-stitched PDFs) – one is a set of sf miniatures rules, and the astrogator’s chartbook. The latter, if it’s the same one I have is a generic Sf pad of paper (classic JG product) with a few generic tables. (I’m bored, so I looked it up, and it took about two minutes from a cold start)

Laser tank says “approved”, but it’s really very generic, too. I suppose that that one might qualify as an infringement, although IIRC, it really has very little to do with the traveler IP. I mean Laser Tanks ? how lo-tech. PGMP-15 and iridium armor, please !:wink:

The old JG stuff was produced under very sketchy licensing agreements from the late 70's, and were still being distributed (and likely produced via xerox machine) forever. If so, possibly he sells them under agreement , or not if they are old stock.

I have no idea what the deal is with PDFs; You could, I suppose also ask the site/shop owner what the deal is if you are really curious. It isn't the QLI stuff, so one can't assume much about the deal it was produced under. If you want to look out for Matt or Marc's license (good on you, seriously), drop either an email letting them know what you've found; keep in mind, its up to them at that point, and if it isn't an issue, I'd be surprised to hear back from either.

Regardless, I understand that QLI PDFs are a big issue -but I'm not sure why a nearly thirty year old generic product is , or the centerpiece for these discussions. Especially since the QLI stuff isn't PDF. Am I missing something ?

Again, Relax.

 

[rust]

Am I missing something ?

Yep, obviously, or do you really think we users of this forum would have
such a discussion without a good reason ? :wink:

 

[captainjack23]

Am I missing something ?

Yep, obviously, or do you really think we users of this forum would have
such a discussion without a good reason ? :wink:

Its probably really important right now that I not answer that question.... :wink:

 

[rust]

Am I missing something ?

Yep, obviously, or do you really think we users of this forum would have
such a discussion without a good reason ? :wink:

Its probably really important right now that I not answer that question.... :wink:

Ah, well, some days the fish bite, some days they don't ... :lol: