Robot's Social Standing

[lordlesath]

I'm making a robot character using Book 9 Robot for a game and I think I've managed to do everything correctly. There is only one issue that I can't seem to resolve.
I can't determine what my starting Social Standing should be. The only thing that seems to add to social standing is the Personality Program which adds its level to SS.
So a robot with PP 3 would have a 3 social standing?
The only other modifications I can find are for Biological frames(enhanced appearance), which I am not, and Weapon frames(artistic), which i am not either.
Do I have to rely on events and such to increase it beyond that?
The reason this doesn't make sense to me is that in the text of Personality Programs it describes a PP5 as witty charming and perfectly smooth, but the robot would only have a social standing of 5?
Am I missing something somewhere?
This would make more sense if the Personality Program gave a Social standing equal to the Intelligence bonus it confers, a PP5 would have a 13 social then.
This seems to be the intent in my opinion and perhaps I am just interpreting the text incorrectly.

Anyone else have any insight or opinions so that I can make sense of this?

 

[far-trader]

I don't have the book so can't comment specifically but imo a robot is property, not a being, hence in the eyes of society it has no inherent social status. Any bonus a personality program confers is a measure of societal acceptance, not actual Soc. A Soc 3 robot is marginally more accepted in personal interaction than a lower Soc robot, a Soc 7 robot would be widely accepted in personal interaction circumstances. I can't see a robot ever being more than tolerably accepted, and in no case revered and achieving high Soc. In all cases robots would probably still be less acceptable than a person. Frankly, except in the case of a true AI robot disguised as a person (human or alien), Soc is a nonsense attribute for a robot. And in that case it would only apply as long as the charade was maintained. Once discovered as a robot the reaction would likely be one of hatred and you could treat the robot as Soc 0 for all intents.

Naturally that clashes with the idea of a robot player character for some. In that case you need to change the societal norm, declare robots as "human" and I suppose simply roll for the robot's initial Soc just like a person. Or set it according to the robot's role in the society. A lowly assembly line bot wold be low Soc. A household working robot would be average Soc. And high functioning administration robots might attain high Soc.

Vote Mayor McRobot incumbent for 200 years running without error!

 

[rust]

In the Third Imperium mechanical and artificial intelligence is con-
sidered to be non-sentient and not subject to the rights and pro-
tections of sophonts. In other words, robots are no persons in the
Imperium, and therefore have no social standing at all.

I think this is the reason why the Robot supplement, written for the
Imperium setting as well as alternate settings, does not handle the
problem of robots as members of the society very well, there was no
Traveller "tradition" to follow.

You can of course handle the social standing of robots in your set-
ting any way you like, but you should keep in mind that the publi-
shed Traveller material will not support such an approach well.

 

[Hans Rancke]

In the OTU, sentient robots are TL16-17 technology. Any sentient robot would be a rare and valuable prototype, either owned by someone or running from its owners who'd be really interested in recovering it.

Playing a non-sentient robot would be a real challenge. I'm not sure how I would go about it.


Hans

 

[nats]

Again I dont have the book so cant comment on the rule but in the Core Rule Book it says that most robots have 0 Soc except some high end models running advanced Intellect programs. An example on page 95 is the servitor robot that has a Soc of 7 and TL of 13 so it is possible.

Its probably something that has been just missed out of the book if previous releases are anything to go by.

We need Mongoose to sort all of these issues out, on this forum at least, as this is kind of thing is starting to get ridiculous. Its making Traveller into a joke when previously it was highly considered as the sci-fi rpg to get. There are so many of these obvious things that have been missed out of various books! Its making it very difficult for me to buy anything from them - unless its been out for a year, or errata has been released, or a new version done. I would like to buy the vehicle design books, robots and animal encounters but the errors in these are making it impossible for me.

I really do hope Marc Miller is looking over Mongoose's releases now, I've heard he is. But if he is how come Animal Encounters came out so broken? It's wrong to blame him for the lack of care that Mongoose puts into Traveller releases but at the end of the day it does reflect rather badly on him and Traveller development as a whole.

 

[rust]

I really do hope Marc Miller is looking over Mongoose's releases now, I've heard he is.

He has done it from the very beginning, and this has not helped
to avoid the problems, partially because it did not eliminate the
"grey area" of potential uncertainties and contradictions between
his idea of the Traveller universe (which is itself not free of con-
tradictions) and the use of the Traveller material for any alterna-
te settings.

To take robots as an example, the original Traveller did not have
any robots at all, they came years later with the Robot book for
Classic Traveller as a kind of afterthought, and none of the pre-
vious Traveller versions has succeeded in finding a good way to
integrate them into the Traveller universe - just take a look at
how seldom robots appear in the official adventures of the vari-
ous versions.

Frankly, since Marc Miller obviously was not able to come up with
a plausible role for robots in society in the previous versions, I do
not see how his supervision of Mongoose's material could help to
solve the problem now.

 

[BFalcon]

Well, as far as Marc Miller's OTU is concerned... just who would allow a sentient robot to fully integrate...

3I? No way jose...

Zhodani? Nope - they're more mind-dead than the Proles...

Sword-Worlders? Can't see it myself...

Darrians? I could possibly see it in a "respecting technology" kind of way, but I very much doubt it...

So remind me again why a very specific table would be needed for such a small range of prospective targets?

Let's look at just what kinds of robots would be socially acceptable...

Firstly, they'd need to be humanoid, almost certainly human-shaped, to pass in a human society (substitute other sophont shapes for their respective species).

Secondly, they would need advanced software to mimic the behaviours and emotional responses of that race - a "wrong" feeling robot would just be ignored as a being or would be actively disliked for trying to be something it wasn't (a feeling that will continue among most races for a while).

Thirdly, they need to be in a role which means that they're employed in a social, not workplace, function - a protocol droid or butler, for example - and even then, run the risk of being seen as an "appliance" than a being in their own right.

Lastly, they need a society (or at least a significant number of sophonts) that accepts - that truly believes - that artificial life can be sentient. I'm not just talking about someone seeing a character on TV and "believing", but actually meeting one and accepting it as a person, not a machine.

Failure to meet all those criteria makes a SOC stat a nonsense, quite frankly. So I can fully understand why Mongoose didn't have such a table - the variables are too complicated to fully cover all eventualities and it's one time the Referee needs to get off their lazy arse and actually make the call themselves.

 

[BFalcon]

rust: I think they've always "been" there, just as tools and other things (like the mobile power generator from star wars - little more than intelligent (but not sentient) tools that know to be in the right place at the right time and not to get in the way if they can help it). A repair droid that knows that, if the vehicle that just came in is damaged, they'll need tools over there, so arranges with its colleagues for one of them to go over there where they'll be handy, perhaps. Maybe the protocol droid that has just picked up on a social error on the part of their owner, so broadcasts a message to their earpiece to either ask to speak to them or to directly point out the error.

The point I'm making is that artificial sentience is pretty much non-existent in the OTU, so as far any material writer is concerned, they're not worth mentioning (why mention the walls or the chairs unless there's something unusual about them) and I also think that Marc Miller never intended, nor wanted, sentient life in his universe anyhow.

I think it's a sign of just how much artificials are disliked and mistrusted when the flight control of the spaceports are still human(oid)s and not computers.

 

[rust]

Yes, I agree - and what you described is what makes it so
difficult to write a Robot supplement which can be used for
the Third Imperium setting (where it is actually not needed
at all, because there robots are just dumb mobile machines)
and for alternate universes were sentient robots are common
and can be plausible player characters.

To make the supplement sell, the poor author somehow has
to find a way to make robots an interesting (preferably even
important) element of the Third Imperium culture, and with-
out contradicting all that has been written about robots there
previously.

Frankly, that borders on impossible, unless he is willing to re-
write that part of the Traveller "canon", which he would hard-
ly be allowed to do by Marc Miller (and which would attract the
unpleasant attention of "hardline" Traveller fans with powered
pitchforks and fusion torches ...).

 

[zero]

Darrians pre-Maghiz would have had low AI, non-self aware robots (and quite probably natural Darrian looking ones too) in nearly all facets of life working alongside Darrians depending on the planet, but the Maghiz would have fried those 'bots.

Now they'd just have the occasional high autonomous robot for a specific purpose and not a "race" of them like pre-Maghiz times either. They may look like natural Darrians also, if the job requires it, but you would be able to tell its a 'bot straight away.

 

[Reynard]

The problem is players want robot characters (especially as armored battlebots) so a robot has to be intelligent and self aware as well as loaded with neat stuff. That can be an overcomplication of the rule mechanics.

Basically, rules for robots should be treated like starships for use and construction. It's property and it serves a function. We have robots in science fiction games because robots are possible and
scifi makes them cool additions just like plasma guns and starships. I'm very much amazed we don't see more robots as adversaries such as security platforms (thinking gun turrets), roving, tireless patrols with the sensors to hunt you and the weapons to make you think twice. Think about novels and movies that have robots everywhere serving many purposes which a GM can work into a story. In lower tech levels robots stand out while in higher tech settings they become part of the background and invisible. All that just screams story ideas. Go watch movies with robots from Runaway to Forbidden Planet to Chopping Mall to Virus to Star Wars, they work.

As to player robots, as with any player character you are the exception. A character robot should have mental abilities allowing the player to have more freedom to act, or at least pretend to act, somewhat independently. Playing a robot should be real roleplaying, you are property, you do follow commands... mostly and you bring uniques functions and abilities. Be a robot rather than a regular character in a robot suit.

 

[BP]

Form my first CT games in the early 80's robots always factored in... this was probably largely influenced by their treatment in Han Solo at Stars' End by Brian Daley (all three of the books now in the Han Solo Adventure book, I'd highly recommend), where the droids played an integral part of the plot. I didn't get the Robots LBB for a long time, just made them up and stated them up like other characters.

The thing about droids is they can be capable of independent action - heck that is what differentiated them form a toaster (not a Red Dwarf reference ). But they also have a purpose or function they were designed for that they would strive to achieve - and that generally means they would not be a 'boss' or leader, so much as a follower. 'Freed' droids have a tendency to want to very quickly find a purpose and go to it ... or they would probably shut themselves down in a sort of suicidal depression (or continue on as in The Hitchhikers Guide...).

Robots IMTU could be highly 'intelligent' and 'educated', but would be rather one track minded. No one ever asked to play one - though I would certainly have allowed it. Half of the ones the players interacted with were 'free' robots with basic citizen rights (aside from voting and could be 'terminated' instead of imprisoned...) who 'latched onto' the parties for their own reasons (to hitch a ride or just to have something to do... or to avoid the law ). They also made good Patron representatives who could obnoxiously keep reminding players, er, PCs of their owner's wishes - but would not actively interfere with things (except, of course, to save the party's collective bacon)...

 

[GypsyComet]

To take robots as an example, the original Traveller did not have
any robots at all, they came years later with the Robot book for
Classic Traveller as a kind of afterthought, and none of the pre-
vious Traveller versions has succeeded in finding a good way to
integrate them into the Traveller universe - just take a look at
how seldom robots appear in the official adventures of the vari-
ous versions.

The initial treatment of robots was in the first four issues of JTAS, within the first two years of the game, and was reprinted in Best of JTAS Vol 1. Your other point stands, however.

 

[rust]

Ah, I see. I only have the JTAS tables of content, and they only
mention "Ref's Notes", but not what the subject of that notes is.

 

[BP]

Looking back at how I handled robots in Classic Traveller where I had no rulebooks to cover them: I used Social Status as applying between robots. Ex: used when a party robot (NPC, but generally 'obeying' PCs) attempted to give orders to other robots (like dockhand droids or security bots). Or, when the party's robot is ordered to do something by other robots.

This to me is like Soc when it comes to aliens - more applicable within a species, but different when talking inter-species.

 

[rust]

I have a problem to imagine that security bots would accept
orders from any unauthorized person, let alone a robot, no
matter how high his "Robot SOC". :shock:

 

[Dave Chase]

I have a problem to imagine that security bots would accept
orders from any unauthorized person, let alone a robot, no
matter how high his "Robot SOC". :shock:

PC robot in a security robot body attempting to bypass actual security robots.

PC robot 'Don't worry, I look like them, I will act like them and once I get by them, I will turn off the security grid.'

PC robot character moves into actual security robot's area of control.

Seconds later, PC robot is shot to pieces. Just because he/she looked like and acted like the other security robots does not mean that they recongize him/her and most likely the PC robot was not in the security web/linkage.

Dave Chase

 

[BP]

I have a problem to imagine that security bots would accept
orders from any unauthorized person, let alone a robot, no
matter how high his "Robot SOC". :shock:

For Referees who are not Automations - Soc would be a factor, not an absolute determinate. :lol:

As we're discussing a Sci-Fi roleplaying game, a little stretching of imagination might not hurt.

Just like with sophonts - other factors should be involved... but, can definitely imagine such a thing happening under the right circumstances. In game terms, with the right skills, dice rolls and roleplay. A 'security robot' design that shoots on sight if the 'password of the day' is not presented in X seconds is not gonna last - too many real world variables, like laryngitis. In real life, I have been escorted past armed security details with 'authorized' persons and a temporary photo ID badge. I then went past such details on several occasions without being questioned, despite no official explicit orders to the guards. Being robots doesn't at all mean that such things wouldn't happen. Protocols and 'authorizations' will often have to be complex to account for dealing with real world (in the game world ) circumstances... hence role-playing opportunities.

Not finding it hard to imagine robots taking orders from other robots - in fact, this offers more opportunity to 'assure' (i.e. con) a robot. Soc would apply as a DM to go along with Deception - in Dave Chase's scenario, between robots that would include electronic protocols.

And, there are plenty of precedents in popular Sci-Fi. Applying human traits and characteristics (literally what Social Standing represents) to non-humans and even inanimate objects is a standard practice in fiction. Humanizing things helps the audience to relate to the story. So, the fact that robots have a social status in many of the stories we are used to, is easy to overlook.

Star Wars makes use of R2-D2s social status as a 'maintenance droid' in numerous scenes, and it is obvious theme that C3PO considers himself on a higher social plateau.

Bob from Disney's Black Hole is another example springs to mind where social status of robots is germane to the very plot. Not to mention TV shows like Buck Rogers and Battlestar Galactica where robots and social status between them and between them and humans play a very big role.

Definitely see a usefulness for a Soc status for Robots and for using rule mechanics to make it useful in a game, most especially if allowing PC robots.

 

[zero]

I tend to not have self-aware robots in Traveller unless they have been an Ancient-built one thats been re-activated, A.I style (love that film btw).

My robots when come across are generally LAI (limited artificial intelligence - they act intelligent but are actually programmed to respond to specific requests). Some humanoid ones can even have fake skin and hair put on them but they arent things that can particularly think for themselves, these types are generally like the Seconds in the anime Armitage III (quite cool cyberpunk anime, if you can find them the OVAs are better than the film version).