Robot Skills and How the Robot Handbook Cheats on Designs

[Terry Mixon]

The designed robots in the Robot Handbook have skills like Engineering (all) and Electreonics (all) and Science (all) and even Language (all). What a load of horse pucky. That can't be legal and any justification for it is bull. Change my mind.

 

[Technetium 98]

alright fine you go digging through nine lines of skills looking to see if the science or engineering robot has the science or engineering skill you want while hoping the designer has exactly the same set of priorities as you, surely this is a superior experience than just having a shorthand for the default list of skills

 

[mavikfelna]

I don't really think it's a problem as long as the total bandwidth isn't exceeded. 0 bandwidth skill could be residing in long term memory and not active until they are needed. At which time the computer swaps them out with something else that isn't currently being used. In combat rounds, maybe treat it as D6 rounds to exchange the programming load.

 

[Terry Mixon]

alright fine you go digging through nine lines of skills looking to see if the science or engineering robot has the science or engineering skill you want while hoping the designer has exactly the same set of priorities as you, surely this is a superior experience than just having a shorthand for the default list of skills

The robot couldn't afford the bandwidth of all the individual skills. That's why it's a cheat. If spelled out, it would be way overdrawn.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I don't really think it's a problem as long as the total bandwidth isn't exceeded. 0 bandwidth skill could be residing in long term memory and not active until they are needed. At which time the computer swaps them out with something else that isn't currently being used. In combat rounds, maybe treat it as D6 rounds to exchange the programming load.

Look at the examples. Language (all) 3. That's not skill/0s. That's a lot of bandwidth for every single language ever. Ditto Sciences (all) 3. Electronics (all) 4 and Engineering (all) 4 are more restricted, but not 0.

Here it is all spelled out if I built it like in the book. Not a skill 0 in sight. There are 5 bandwidth left over to reach the price point, but no way this is legal.

 

[mavikfelna]

Ok, here's a simple rule to fix it without having to go back and fix all the robots. A robot can only run bandwidth worth of programs + INT DM in number of 0 bandwidth programs, total not be larger than bandwidth+INT DM total, at a time. More programs than this may be loaded on a robot at one time but they are not active and in deep storage. The robot or operator may swap out the active programs at any time but it takes D6 rounds to do so. So long as the cost for the programs has been paid, the robot has enough deep memory to hold bandwidth x3 total programs.

As an example, a robot with Bandwidth 5, INT +0, could run a total of 5 programs with a total bandwidth up to 5, so 5 bandwidth 0 programs, or 2 bandwidth 2 and 1 bandwidth 1 program or any other such combination totally no more than 5 programs and 5 bandwidth. In the current inactive deep memory the robot could have 15 total programs with total bandwidth not to exceed 15.

Example 2, a ship's brain with bandwidth 9 and INT +1, could run 10 total programs with a bandwidth total not exceeding 9. It could store a total of 27 bandwidth of programs.

For the existing designs that have done this, for Language (all) assume it is only the standard languages on the list in the CRB, which is 6 languages. Same with all the other skills. If you want additional languages or subskills not from the CRB, then they must be purchased separately.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Does it work if you assume the Crack Team Of Mongoose Editors meant Science (any single one selected at purchase)/3?

Because that is how I would tend to houserule it. On the non-houserule front, I seem to remember an optional rule to justify extremely wide ranging skills by training in at least four (?) different specialties. I cannot recall where I saw it though, sorry.

 

[hopsnbaer]

The game is not a SIM

 

[Terry Mixon]

Does it work if you assume the Crack Team Of Mongoose Editors meant Science (any single one selected at purchase)/3?

Because that is how I would tend to houserule it. On the non-houserule front, I seem to remember an optional rule to justify extremely wide ranging skills by training in at least four (?) different specialties. I cannot recall where I saw it though, sorry.

It would work that way, yes. Perhaps that's even what they meant. If so, that should have been "any" rather than "all".

 

[Terry Mixon]

The game is not a SIM

Life is a SIM.

 

[Technetium 98]

Look at the examples. Language (all) 3. That's not skill/0s.

They are. It's INT 15, not 12. You can fit all the skills (with 2 Bandwidth to spare!) with DM+3.



Yes, it's slightly over-budget, if you don't allow for a 10% - 20% discount, as the rules explicitly allow.

... Did all of you dogpile on this one specific issue without even checking if it was rules-legal to begin with?

 

[J. L. Brown]

They are. It's INT 15, not 12. You can fit all the skills (with 2 Bandwidth to spare!) with DM+3.

View attachment 5618

Yes, it's slightly over-budget, if you don't allow for a 10% - 20% discount, as the rules explicitly allow.

... Did all of you dogpile on this one specific issue without even checking if it was rules-legal to begin with?

One problem is that (all) is not a subcategory; and there is only limited space to fit rank/0 skills.

 

[hopsnbaer]

One problem is that (all) is not a subcategory; and there is only limited space to fit rank/0 skills.

I don't mind if it is just there to save space. Why make the page more busy than it needs to be?

 

[Terry Mixon]

They are. It's INT 15, not 12. You can fit all the skills (with 2 Bandwidth to spare!) with DM+3.

View attachment 5618

Yes, it's slightly over-budget, if you don't allow for a 10% - 20% discount, as the rules explicitly allow.

... Did all of you dogpile on this one specific issue without even checking if it was rules-legal to begin with?

I did have that wrong. Thanks for pointing it out.

Even so, all is not a valid subcategory, as stated above. It is EVERYTHING. This robot gets 10 level 0 skills. That doesn't even come close to covering all the subcatagories.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I don't mind if it is just there to save space. Why make the page more busy than it needs to be?

I don't mind the space savings. It's the invalidation of the build rules that bugs me.

 

[Terry Mixon]

One problem is that (all) is not a subcategory; and there is only limited space to fit rank/0 skills.

This.

 

[Technetium 98]

Even so, all is not a valid subcategory, as stated above. It is EVERYTHING. This robot gets 10 level 0 skills. That doesn't even come close to covering all the subcatagories.

1. When you get one subskill at 0, you get all subskills at 0 - Profession is the only exception. You don't need that many level 0s.
2. Even if Language was an exception, that's still just 8 level 0 skills, which the robot can comfortably accommodate - it can have up to 15.
3. Even if it couldn't, it still has 2 Bandwidth spare.

Unless your objection is what I thought it was to start with - which you explicitly denied, by the way - that 'all' is supposed to account for every possible subskill of Engineer or Electronics that a referee could come up with. Which is patently absurd, but even then, the rules explicitly say that dedicating 4x the Bandwidth (or 8x for broader skills) still allows you to cover the subcategories.

 

[Terry Mixon]

1. When you get one skill at 0, you get all skills at 0 - Profession is the only exception. You don't need that many level 0s.
2. Even if Language was an exception, that's still just 8 level 0 skills, which the robot can comfortably accommodate - it can have up to 15.
3. Even if it couldn't, it still has 2 Bandwidth spare.

Unless your objection is what I thought it was to start with - which you explicitly denied, by the way - that 'all' is supposed to account for every possible subskill of Engineer or Electronics that a referee could come up with. Which is patently absurd.

Unless I'm going insane (possible) I have not denied that is exactly what I mean. All cannot mean every single possible subspecialty.

Let's take your numbers in order.

1. When you get a skill at 1, you get the subspecialties at 0. That's not true for all skills as some have vast numbers of subspecialties.
2. There are far more languages in the 11,000 worlds of the Third Imperium than those few. They are not enumerated, but they exist.
3. The amount of bandwidth it has left in this case means nothing because they aren't using the skills as earned subspeciaties. First, they would need one skill at 1. Let's use engineering. Jump drives at 1. Yea! Now all the rest would be 3 not 4.

They got lazy and just made this up.

 

[Technetium 98]

1. Correct, it's not true for all skills. It's not true for Profession. It is true for every other skill.
2. Again, subskills. Language isn't an exception - you can complain about that, but that would turn your argument from 'this robot isn't rules-legal' to 'I don't like this rule in the core book', so I've got to wonder why you started with the former.
3. Yeah, if Engineer (All) 1 cost 1 Bandwidth that would be ridiculous. Fortunate, then, that it doesn't. I costed it for 4 Bandwidth (accounting for the 4 subskills in the CRB), so did the examples in the Robot Handbook.

If spelled out, it would be way overdrawn.

They can say that dedicating four-to-eight times the Bandwidth is enough to cover for all skills. They can spell out all the skills individually. Pick one.

 

[Terry Mixon]

1. Correct, it's not true for all skills. It's not true for Profession. It is true for every other skill.
2. Again, subskills. Language isn't an exception - you can complain about that, but that would turn your argument from 'this robot isn't rules-legal' to 'I don't like this rule in the core book', so I've got to wonder why you started with the former.
3. Yeah, if Engineer (All) 1 cost 1 Bandwidth that would be ridiculous. Fortunate, then, that it doesn't. I costed it for 4 Bandwidth (accounting for the 4 subskills in the CRB), so did the examples in the Robot Handbook.

They can say that dedicating four-to-eight times the Bandwidth is enough to cover for all skills. They can spell out all the skills individually. Pick one.

I don't get what you are saying for #1. You need skill 1 to get any subspecialties at 0. I can't imagine learning 1 language at 1 means a passing familiarity with all languages. In any case, they didn't even get skill 1 in any language. All of that is stat bonus.

If the robot had a single language at level 1, that would be true by a strict reading of the rules, which would be stupid but legal. Unfortunately, it does not have any language at skill 1, so no subspecialties. None. Ditto with science.

I don't know why your spreadsheet counts 4 bandwidth for Engineering (all). Mine only counts 1. The official sheet agrees. 1 bandwidth.