Robot salaries and accommodation

[Shardan13]

Just a thought I had that helped explain why robots are not more common in Charted Space though not the only reason.

At a certain point along the robot conscious spectrum the robot the demands to be paid a salary and given half a stateroom for their own space. The robot may not completely understand the use of said salary and space and may be just mimicking the rest of the crew. The salary probably be used for maintenance costs and upgrades but the space may be used for self expression. I'm not saying that the on board robots spontaneously ask for such things but a new robot might.

At this point ship owners may decide if they are going to pay a salary and provide room they might as well just hire someone as a reason for having a robot is lessen.

Also there may be advocation groups pushing for robot rights.

 

[rinku]

It's a fair discussion point, but probably only applies to Self Aware ones, which start to turn up at TL15. Below that they really are just toasters with sass, and there's likely objective technical benchmarks that can accurately tell if a machine is definitely in that grade.

That is not to say there won't be people lobbying for robot rights before TL15. There are 21st century folk who get into relationships with their love dolls and people in general are not objective. By all means have a planet or three where this is a hot issue.

I could also see a certain type of ship's captain who would declare the robots as full crew members... and then "manage" their wages for them. If they're particularly slippery they might legally adopt them and replace any that get to legal age ("Go, my son, seek your fortune among the stars!" "Bernie, break out a new one. I've got the papers ready for notarization...")

 

[Terry Mixon]

It's a fair discussion point, but probably only applies to Self Aware ones, which start to turn up at TL15. Below that they really are just toasters with sass, and there's likely objective technical benchmarks that can accurately tell if a machine is definitely in that grade.

That is not to say there won't be people lobbying for robot rights before TL15. There are 21st century folk who get into relationships with their love dolls and people in general are not objective. By all means have a planet or three where this is a hot issue.

I could also see a certain type of ship's captain who would declare the robots as full crew members... and then "manage" their wages for them. If they're particularly slippery they might legally adopt them and replace any that get to legal age ("Go, my son, seek your fortune among the stars!" "Bernie, break out a new one. I've got the papers ready for notarization...")

Even the self-aware ones aren’t truly conscious. They just edge just up to the line.

 

[rinku]

But that's the point where the arguments really start.

Of course, the real reason that robots aren't more common in Charted Space is likely that there wasn't enough page count for them in 1977

 

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, but we have game mechanics that say that in black and white. Real world people aren't going to have that. It's not different than the argument over whether Chirpers are fully sentient or not. We know they are because the game rules say so. But the people actually living with them think they are just droyne shaped monkeys.

Sure, "future tech will make this easy to know" or something. But it won't necessarily do that. You'll have the problem of the Star Wars Droids. Clearly we are supposed to get attached to them like they are real people, but they aren't treated like they are anything but machines.

 

[wintertraveller]

I tend to think of R2D2 as very advanced, Mr. Data as fully conscious, and perhaps Marvin from the Heart of Gold as Self Aware which is why he so depressed.

 

[rinku]

Well, in-universe there's the Shudusham Concords of -110, which pretty much make robots and androids of all grades property. So that's easily sorted, where those laws still have influence.

Otherwise... it's going to vary, and be messy. There's no universally agreed upon benchmark - every legal jurisdiction can adopt their own definitions. Kinda like historical slavery in that regard. Except the Imperium in this case is definitely NOT playing the part of the British Navy. They default to "all of them are property".

I disagree that it's the same as Chirpers, though it's similar. Those are poorly studied (and hard to study at that), while a mechanical has been manufactured and all of its specs are knowable. Legally, you can set benchmarks and test the machine to rate it, if it was important to do so. Putting aside the rights of a robot, the rating of a bot does have a meaning in terms of what jobs it can do, and how well.

 

[Condottiere]

There are reports that consumers can't tell that they're conversing with chatbot(terboxe)s.

I'd guess, how large and fast the databank they're linked to, is.

 

[rinku]

Consumers are easily satisfied.

Industrial safety standards authorities, maybe less so.

 

[Shardan13]

The interesting point is that very advanced robots and those below true conscious still consider themselves conscious even though the game rules state that they do not. It may become a case of robot see robot do with the ship crew in regards of salaries and accommodations.

 

[Condottiere]

Disadvantage: Delusional

 

[rinku]

My point is more that regardless of how the robot feels about it, they default to being property. They got built, to be sold.

 

[Condottiere]

If they can incorporate, they can achieve personhood.


Corporate personhood or juridical personality is the legal notion that a juridical person such as a corporation, separately from its associated human beings (like owners, managers, or employees), has at least some of the legal rights and responsibilities enjoyed by natural persons. In most countries, a corporation has the same rights as a natural person to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued.[1]

 

[swordtart]

A grav vehicle with auto pilot is a robot. There are plenty of robots in Traveller - for any specific value of "robot".

 

[Arkathan]

My roboticist player made a point of telling me that he bought and hung a plaque in his lab stating:
If you are aware of your own sentience, you are free. Also, Please don't kill me.

 

[Vormaerin]

I disagree that it's the same as Chirpers, though it's similar. Those are poorly studied (and hard to study at that), while a mechanical has been manufactured and all of its specs are knowable. Legally, you can set benchmarks and test the machine to rate it, if it was important to do so. Putting aside the rights of a robot, the rating of a bot does have a meaning in terms of what jobs it can do, and how well.

Yeah, but do you have any way of knowing if the benchmarks are actually valid or just set to get the result that you want? IIRC, real people fail the Voigt-Kampf android detection test in Blade Runner. The Quarians didn't realize they'd made sentient robots.

Sure, we can assume that the categories for the rules are somehow knowable facts in universe, but that's often not particularly true.

 

[rinku]

Well, outright not allowing manufactured things to have rights keeps it simple, I guess.

You only need a Voight-Kampf test if you've taken the step to manufacture skinbots. No matter how sophisticated a robot brain is, if it's installed in R2D2, you know what it is.

For that matter, the Voight-Kampf test always seemed a bit silly to me. If the replicants can't be detected as artificial by objective scans of some kind, you've already crossed the moral event horizon. If they're non-biological at all, you'd think even an X-Ray would pick that up.

 

[Vormaerin]

Oh, you can certainly pass laws that prevent manufactured things (or living things) from having rights. That's not difficult. Whether they are robots, clones, uplifted animals, or just people you don't like, there's nothing requiring you to give them rights.

I think the point of Bladerunner androids is that they are, essentially, clones of humans and not mechanical in any way. You would still think it was easy to put a genetic marker or something on them. But the story "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" has a lot more philosophical and moral exposition than the movie does. Part of the issue there is that the Earth was so environmentally abused that animals are practically extinct and it is de rigeur to have a pet just to show you can care for other living things. So making mechanical people would be pretty gross to the current zeitgeist of the world. And that's why the androids aren't allowed on Earth, because they are perceived to lack that empathy.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Reminds me of the Terry Pratchett Disk World novels with the Golem Trust.