MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I am still trying to figure out why a robot should be limited by skill level. If it can be smarter than a human, why can't it be better trained than a human?
Robot Crew Oversight
- Thread starter Terry Mixon
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Rote learning.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Not after TL-11. They can learn on their own.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Because until you hit conscious intelligence level brains, the hardware is a limiting factor?
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
Now I am a little interested in the maximum 'Recon', 'Broker', 'Diplomat', and 'Carouse' droids at each (TL-10 through TL-15) TL, without dedicated modules. I might spend a little time playing with the spreadsheets.
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I'm expanding my crew selection to stewards as we speak. My admin droids have broker and other things.
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
True, but a 'Broker Droid' could go from Broker/(+0) at TL-10 to Broker/(+6) at TL-15; using 6 bandwidth & 5960000 Cr worth of Intelligence upgrades.
It is very much a niche application, but it would be useful for managing a portfolio of investments.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the maximum (Skill + Attribute Bonus) assets for Robots (without a dedicated module) are as follows:
Admin, Electronics, Explosives, Mechanic, Navigation, Steward, and Tactics are:
Skill/(2+0) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 0kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-10;
Skill/(2+1) with 5kCr of Bandwidth & 72kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-11;
Skill/(3+2) with 50kCr of Bandwidth & 2640kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-12;
Skill/(3+2) with 50kCr of Bandwidth & 264kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-13;
Skill/(3+2) with 20kCr of Bandwidth & 24kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-14; and
Skill/(3+3) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 5460kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-15.
Engineer, Language, Medic, Profession, and Science are:
Skill/(1+0) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 0kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-10;
Skill/(2+1) with 10kCr of Bandwidth & 72kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-11;
Skill/(3+2) with 50kCr of Bandwidth & 2640kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-12;
Skill/(3+2) with 50kCr of Bandwidth & 264kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-13;
Skill/(3+2) with 20kCr of Bandwidth & 24kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-14; and
Skill/(3+3) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 5460kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-15.
Advocate, Art, Broker, Diplomat, Gambler, Recon, and Survival are:
Skill/(0+0) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 0kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-10;
Skill/(1+1) with 10kCr of Bandwidth & 72kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-11;
Skill/(2+2) with 50kCr of Bandwidth & 2640kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-12;
Skill/(3+2) with 50kCr of Bandwidth & 264kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-13;
Skill/(3+2) with 20kCr of Bandwidth & 24kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-14; and
Skill/(3+3) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 5460kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-15.
Carouse, Investigate, and Persuade are:
Skill/(0+1) with 5kCr of Bandwidth & 72kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-11;
Skill/(1+2) with 50kCr of Bandwidth & 2640kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-12;
Skill/(2+2) with 50kCr of Bandwidth & 264kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-13;
Skill/(3+2) with 50kCr of Bandwidth & 24kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-14; and
Skill/(3+3) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 5460kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-15.
Astrogation is:
Skill/(0+2) with 20kCr of Bandwidth & 2640kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-12;
Skill/(1+2) with 20kCr of Bandwidth & 264kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-13;
Skill/(2+2) with 20kCr of Bandwidth & 24kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-14; and
Skill/(3+3) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 5460kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-15.
Deception, Leadership, and Streetwise are:
Skill/(0+2) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 264kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-13;
Skill/(1+2) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 24kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-14; and
Skill/(2+3) with 0kCr of Bandwidth & 5460kCr of Intellect upgrades at TL-15.
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I'll have to look at this tomorrow when my brain isn't mush. There is lots of mathing.
If money is no object, you could do a TL15 early prototype conscious intelligence. It has no skill cap and lots of bandwidth.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Humans aren't limited by their INT as to max skill level even if their INT is less than 15. INT 15 is required for a synthetic sophont, but natural sophonts can be sophonts with an INT of like 2 or 3. Humans are basically just organic brained biobots. What TL is a sophont brain? You can build one at TL-17. You can grow one at TL-10. At what TL can you program one? Hack one?
Can you build a robot with Conscious Intelligence and an INT of 8? Or can conscious robots only be geniuses?
Edit - Just some interesting thoughts on holes within the rules.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
According to RH p88
"A biobot may use any personal augmentations from the Central Supply Catalogue (pages 86 –93)* or from the Cyborgs section of this chapter at the same cost and effects as a normal biological being."
On that basis you can give it the most amped brain available (INT 18) but then add things like Cognitive Augmentation, Complex Cranial Processing Unit, Skill Augmentation etc. to boost skill levels or INT further. I am not sure this feels right as the brain is still electronic.
Full Body Cybogs could have the normal sophont INT plus any Augments and benefit from robot systems. They may go insane though and all that expensive hardware go on a rampage
Clones however (which might have exactly the same status as robots in some campaigns) can be built with INT11 +D3 and can have 16 years of creche training which can add skills INT. I am not sure if to increase INT from say 14 to 15 is just two level 0 skills. Regardless you can get level 4 skills (up to four after 16 years) and clones can definitely benefit from Personal Augmentations, plus Expert packages and other equipment to grant further bonuses (as of course can flesh-bag Travellers).
It seems the bio's can easily outclass the machines (unless they turn us to grey goo first).
*These page references don't match up though.
"A biobot may use any personal augmentations from the Central Supply Catalogue (pages 86 –93)* or from the Cyborgs section of this chapter at the same cost and effects as a normal biological being."
On that basis you can give it the most amped brain available (INT 18) but then add things like Cognitive Augmentation, Complex Cranial Processing Unit, Skill Augmentation etc. to boost skill levels or INT further. I am not sure this feels right as the brain is still electronic.
Full Body Cybogs could have the normal sophont INT plus any Augments and benefit from robot systems. They may go insane though and all that expensive hardware go on a rampage
Clones however (which might have exactly the same status as robots in some campaigns) can be built with INT11 +D3 and can have 16 years of creche training which can add skills INT. I am not sure if to increase INT from say 14 to 15 is just two level 0 skills. Regardless you can get level 4 skills (up to four after 16 years) and clones can definitely benefit from Personal Augmentations, plus Expert packages and other equipment to grant further bonuses (as of course can flesh-bag Travellers).
It seems the bio's can easily outclass the machines (unless they turn us to grey goo first).
*These page references don't match up though.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I am sure that that is what the rules say, but how do you add synthetic neurons to something that uses an electronic computer instead of neurons? I would guess that those things don't stack, since the brain in a biobot is not organic to begin with.According to RH p88
"A biobot may use any personal augmentations from the Central Supply Catalogue (pages 86 –93)* or from the Cyborgs section of this chapter at the same cost and effects as a normal biological being."
On that basis you can give it the most amped brain available (INT 18) but then add things like Cognitive Augmentation, Complex Cranial Processing Unit, Skill Augmentation etc. to boost skill levels or INT further. I am not sure this feels right as the brain is still electronic.
Full Body Cybogs could have the normal sophont INT plus any Augments and benefit from robot systems. They may go insane though and all that expensive hardware go on a rampage
Clones however (which might have exactly the same status as robots in some campaigns) can be built with INT11 +D3 and can have 16 years of creche training which can add skills INT. I am not sure if to increase INT from say 14 to 15 is just two level 0 skills. Regardless you can get level 4 skills (up to four after 16 years) and clones can definitely benefit from Personal Augmentations, plus Expert packages and other equipment to grant further bonuses (as of course can flesh-bag Travellers).
It seems the bio's can easily outclass the machines (unless they turn us to grey goo first).
*These page references don't match up though.
Creche training is not programming. You can't go in and delete some skills and add others.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
As a robot brain with a biological body, I don't think they can have brain augmentations, just stuff to the rest of the body.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The rules as written say they can:
"A biobot may use any personal augmentations from the Central Supply Catalogue"
unless there is a sentence that then says "except for brain augments" then the rule is clear.
The get out clause is that the CSC and the Robots book are technically generic books, so things may change in the Third Imperium or any bespoke setting at the referee's discretion.
"A biobot may use any personal augmentations from the Central Supply Catalogue"
unless there is a sentence that then says "except for brain augments" then the rule is clear.
The get out clause is that the CSC and the Robots book are technically generic books, so things may change in the Third Imperium or any bespoke setting at the referee's discretion.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
People are free to do as they like, but I personally wouldn't mix robot brains and biological brain augments.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I have some other things to do this morning before getting to the maths, but it occured to me that Broker, unlike all the rest of the skills, doesn't use DMs. It's a flat skill level. Broker 3 is Broker 3, regardless of INT bonuses. I think that's stupid, and it should use stat bonuses, but it doesn't.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Education, for finding interested parties.
It would seem a little complex, since you have to figure out how to get a deal done, which could require both Education, knowing the environment, and Intelligence, finding the correct words to be convincing.
If you're arguing with a bot, it may be finding logical paradoxes.
It would seem a little complex, since you have to figure out how to get a deal done, which could require both Education, knowing the environment, and Intelligence, finding the correct words to be convincing.
If you're arguing with a bot, it may be finding logical paradoxes.
Not for determining price, but you still use Characteristic modifiers when you use Broker to find suppliers and markets, also for getting passengers.
There may be other uses for the skill that are just not specified in the CRB. CRB does have negotiating a deal as an INT check, but this must be for deals other than in trade commodities (i.e. buying goods from shops at a discount). It can also be used for the availability check for unusual goods.
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
Yeah; I think it is silly, too. I can understand gating certain capabilities behind skill-levels, but that is not the approach they have generally gone with.
In the Robot Handbook Update, it lists the 'Broker' Skill Package as being modified by INT; which is probably just another case of Mongoose being Mongoose.
Speaking as someone dealing with the effects of a player with broker 4 plus an augment in the party, I can see very clearly in practice why the designers decided not to include an INT (or EDU, which seems more appropriate) modifier. It's already hard for the party not to get rich quickly at that level.
