Restoration Class TL12 Heavy Frigate and tech level balance

Chas

Mongoose
The Restoration class of heavy frigates was a unique initiative by the Imperial Navy which has proven to be an unqualified success. Local sector navies have long had to rely on obsolete cast offs from the Imperial Navy for defense. While this ensures a steady supply of cut price ships there are always issues, the vessels perhaps not ideally suited for the required role, or aspects of the ship’s technology still beyond some of the sector’s worlds or local naval stations, greatly limiting the effectiveness of the vessels.

The Restoration class is ship building program for local systems defense taken in a different direction. Where the Imperial Navy analyzed past ship building technologies and sector protection requirements and designed a low cost budget space craft for a specific strategic role that has a place in any corner of the inhabited galaxy.

The Restoration is a low jump, high firepower tech level 12 ship. To help protect key dense key shipping routes over a wide net of low technology level worlds. Standardizing the hull, and relying on a weapons suite that has stood the test of time, the Restorations are a powerful deterrent to enemy forces. Hostile nations find casual commercial cruiser raids are prevented, significant material must be committed to overwhelm these heavy frigates. While pirates can only run when a Restoration comes onto the sensor screen.

There were other benefits of the program. These low cost, low jump capital ships assume a function that high jump high tech ships of the line are wasted for, freeing up modern naval elements for more optimal roles. Cost conscious local governments appreciate the fiscal savings of this standardized ship, while naval constructions yards that could never have dreamed of receiving an Imperial Fleet contract have received a significant economic boost. Not only that, but the Imperial Navy now has an expanded base of qualified suppliers, with many new yards familiar with Imperial Naval standards and requirements. Easily made space worthy, more than a few Imperial naval stations have a pod of Restoration hull hulks in ordinary. Ready to be armed and brought into service with reservists in case of a war emergency.

Finally, these ships are reminder that it is not always the person with the best guns that win the fight. Enough guns of any sort can still get the job done.

wGurEyC.png


8aeiGPZ.png


(Design not made with standardized hull cost saving. And yeah, at this stage there's a bunch of stuff missing like Marines, and a ships boat etc, the bridge is all wrong, but you'll see there's plenty of cargo left for that and ammo)

This design highlights several RAW issues.

I’d originally approached this concept with the idea that I’d make certain elements modular, so they could be swapped out for different tech levels of equipment. On review of the final design I discovered that it didn’t need it. The ship is perfectly lethal as is purely on pure firepower, as a tech 12 ship. If you look at that weapons balance and consider what you are gaining at TL15 – there isn’t really anything that much new. In a credit per credit basis this ship will likely defeat many TL15 Jump 4 ships up to light cruiser status in a straight shoot out simply because it is low jump. A tech level 15 ship has greater maneuverability, but it is paying for it by tonnage add on and needs to paaay in credits to get weapon parity (see below). A tech 13 ship that is only jump 3 can defeat an equal weight of TL15 jump 4 ship. Because the weight difference in the extra jump number even with advantages applied is not truly overcome by the increase in firepower or defense. So you have the paradox of what could be a standard naval ship of a higher tech level losing when they actually meet in battle with a past TL navy standard ship which would only a lower jump because of technology limits, not intended design.

One of the issues here is that hull points don’t scale with technology. This was touched on in another thread, and there could be a nod to this in a rules update.

Another issue is the rule for hull reinforcement. As it is currently worded capital ships of spinal weapon cruiser class of jump 4 can’t take advantage of it unless they are burning up high tech advantages i.e. it is a losing trade off. There just isn’t the weight allowance to fit this in and some sort of secondary weaponry besides the spinal mount. Whereas this lower jump ship can put this in, and could double it if it chose. And still maintain a firepower superiority over jump 4 medium cruisers.

Another point to take into consideration is the reduced fuel advantage. The fuel of a 100kt J4 battle cruiser is 40ktons. With Reduced Fuel 5% less of that is 2000 tons, another 5% if the referee allows stacking in this instance (and I’m NOT a fan of including loosely worded comments about referee discretion! The ref can reduce it if they choose, they don’t have to told they can do it and create confusion and unnecessary clarification on a case by case basis) is 4000 tons saving. Now when considering a low jump low tech ship the higher jump ship has only just gained parity with the fuel difference by using two advantages. And if it’s TL13 Jump 3, vs TL 15 Jump 4, there is only one fuel advantage separating the two, which is not enough to offset the firepower advantage.

If we look at the jump engines a difference in jump level is 2.5% of the ship by engine. If we apply the Size Reduction advantage if two are allowed you get 2% of that back so you’re loosing. And that TL 13 Jump 3 with one advantage vs TL 15 Jump 4 situation with two advantages gap still applies.

Going back to a TL 12 ship with a jump 3 drive you need to consider just to get near weapon tonnage parity, the TL 15 Jump 4 ship needs to pay 200% the costs of an already expensive jump drive. The credit per credit basis really kicks in.

I’d mentioned that I figured by the current rules under medium to heavy cruiser that there was no place for the light cruiser and the heavy frigate was likely to be the next level down. This ship is a design in that niche. Enough long range particle weapons to start shooting at fighters early, a vast torpedo salvo (or missile salvo depending on final weapon balances) to meet incoming craft and overwhelm point defenses, and fusion gun bays to assault anyone who wants to get close. At tech level 13 the fusion bays would be more and long range, and as we have shown already the bay weapon is an equal or better match up to the spinal mount as such in this current beta. When you are talking bay weapons the couple of points of armor difference is no balance mechanism when somebody else is bringing a dozen more 100 ton bays to the fight. High maneuver will help, but certainly not enough to ensure superiority vs the firepower of an extra 2.5% of the ship hull in weapons which you get with Jump fuel size difference alone. That’s 12 medium bays more in a 50,000 ton ship that a lower jump drive ship has. In a Jump 4 medium cruiser ship you are working to have 12 medium bays along with a spinal mount.

Some suggestions for consideration
- TBD, still mulling this heh.
 
Broken Links.

Two things I'm interested in:

a) Does this hold true? I am incapable of designing a TL15 ship(s) that can take this on (not ridiculously disparate cost of course).

b) Did this always hold true for traveller? Have any number of TL12 particle battery ships been able to handle any number of TL15 ships? (which means at least we've not introduced anything new lol)
 
Question 1 I'll return to. I built this ship and put it out, but still kicking the results and options around a bit.

I can't answer 2, those ships I did build back in the day were all TL15, I didn't look at low tech stuff to remember.
 
Now I see the design. I'll look at TL15 designs myself.

I can immediately tell you, that as it stands, a distant-ranged particle design will outrange it and maintain distance from outside of its firing range and pelt it to death.

Funny enough, that isnt a TL15 Design, and is actually a TL12 one. It is also not a problem with TL but the distant "range" band anyways :)
 
At the scale you are working at There really isn't much need to build a Frigate destroyer, corvette etc to the higher TL, which should make them cheaper so the TL-15 navy can field more warships.

Even if they have the advantage in jump range, thrust, and a few other points. The power of the TL-15 turret and bay weapons really isn't much better...although theoretically they can pack more bays into the hull than a TL-12. Unles you use the Gravimetric and Tachyon weapons then your looking at a real difference


TL-15 powers can start using bonded super-dense, meson weapons, fewer tons of reactor to meet power requirements, and more powerful spinal mounts.At 100K TL-15 battlecruiser, will definitely have an advantage over a TL12 counterpart. If for no other reason it can pack on more armor, more screens, and use weapons the TL-12 force cant even field.

at TL-12 you can field a Meson spinal mount...but at TL-15 they have Meson screens and bigger meson guns..The TL-12 fires his meson...the TL-15 goes..."Oh how cute" and fires back...slicing thought eh TL-12s armor without slowing down...because Meson screens are TL-13.
 
I think the point he's trying to make is that if a TL15 battle ship costs twice as much as a TL12, and can't take two of them.. then whats the point of TL15.

Which is a valid point.

Of course, with no limit on budget TL15 is better - that is no argument. But does it cost twice as much? or 50% more? and if can 2xTL15 ships really take out 3xTL12 equivalents?
 
Nothing says a TL15 vessel has to cost twice as much as a TL12 vessel, or even for that matter use say Jump-4 or something. Could still be built with Jump-3 or whatever the need is. Just because part of a ship may happen to be TL15 doesn't mean everything on the ship is.
 
AndrewW said:
Nothing says a TL15 vessel has to cost twice as much as a TL12 vessel, or even for that matter use say Jump-4 or something. Could still be built with Jump-3 or whatever the need is. Just because part of a ship may happen to be TL15 doesn't mean everything on the ship is.

Thats what we need to find out yup. Although, as I've stated, it may not be a fault of MGT2, it could have always been the case.
 
Nerhesi said:
I think the point he's trying to make is that if a TL15 battle ship costs twice as much as a TL12, and can't take two of them.. then whats the point of TL15.

Which is a valid point.

Of course, with no limit on budget TL15 is better - that is no argument. But does it cost twice as much? or 50% more? and if can 2xTL15 ships really take out 3xTL12 equivalents?

He was comparing a TL-12 20k frigate/cruiser to it's counterpart at TL-15

Part of my point is at the tonnage, and weaponry he has listed He's right.and I did say that at this scale there is no reason to be building smaller ships at TL-15. tech...since most weapons become available at TL 8-11 they do not radically improve above TL-12.

although at TL-14 the option of tachyon weapons is available ( if allowed) a T-cannon bay has better range, than a fusion bay,and armor penetration. which particle beams don't..a simple nuclear dampener, and radiation shielding blunts, the radiation effect of a particle beam. weapons. T-weapons need Bonded molecular armor to blunt their effects.

My OTHER point was that at higher tonnages, and using spinal weapons, and TL-13 up weaponry the larger ships of the same tonnages would have the benefits to counterbalance their extra cost


2000 ton TL-15 vs TL12 is an expensive low return prospect.. But, Cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships..with spinal mounts....The TL advantage pays off in better weapons, defenses and systems. such as being able to slice up TL12 ships with meson guns, while you have Meson screens to absorb incoming TL-12 meson guns.
 
And this is why God created spreadsheets... for grognards to PROVE who's design is better on paper!
 
Nerhesi said:
Now I see the design. I'll look at TL15 designs myself.

I can immediately tell you, that as it stands, a distant-ranged particle design will outrange it and maintain distance from outside of its firing range and pelt it to death.

Funny enough, that isnt a TL15 Design, and is actually a TL12 one. It is also not a problem with TL but the distant "range" band anyways :)
Well, I could have given the particle beams the long range advantage, but when I was making the craft I did have in mind your recommendation to limit this, ho ho. But being able to choose the fighting range is one advantage the higher maneuver ships have for sure.
 
AndrewW said:
Nothing says a TL15 vessel has to cost twice as much as a TL12 vessel, or even for that matter use say Jump-4 or something. Could still be built with Jump-3 or whatever the need is. Just because part of a ship may happen to be TL15 doesn't mean everything on the ship is.
Yes, I'm saying the cost is a point to consider, but it is not the major problem in itself, it is an issue which compounds the balance considerations with tonnage and jump levels.

The key question is what is the balance the game wants between jump level and tonnage expended.

Right now a tech level 13 jump 3 ship beats a tech level 15 jump 4 ship, as best I can see.
A jump 2 tech level 12 ship is a significant problem for a jump 4 ship TL15.

My personal opinion is that the balance should tend more to the high tech level ship.


Suggestions:
- The jump level parity points with the advantages are not far off and you would have to be careful mucking with them in case of unintended consequences. The high tech ship at jump 2 vs the low tech ship at jump 2 has a clear advantage now in tonnage.
- Hull point scaling with TL is something that has been touched on before and might recommend this. It does not have to be drastic, but it would be a clear and easy scale to bring into the game fundamentals and provide an incremental edge that would stack well with the incremental, but not game changing, edge of the armor.
- One thing I believe is important and should be implemented is a TL for the counter measures suite and advantages on sensor suites. It makes a lot of sense that electronic warfare should be considerably to the advantage of the high tech vessel. And being able to make the lock on target, and break locks on your own vessel a genuine advantage. I would suggest putting in a TL 12 or 13 for the Military Counter Measures suite, and then a TL advantage of +1 on rolls on what best suits the locking rolls?
- Don't know yet where software and computers are going, but if the high TL ship has an advantage in say Firepower software, that should also help.

Anyway, please give me a bit more time and I'll get the same ship up as a tech 15 jump 4 vessel for direct comparison. :wink:
 
To report on the TL15 Jump 4 Armor 14 Maneuver 9 build we are 3000 tons heavier than the design at TL12 with Jump 2 and M 6. So this would imply removing the 6 large torpedo bays.
If we put in a quite likely Maneuver 8 drive with the size reduction advantage then the T15 jump 4 is 2300 tons heavier. I.e. there'll still need to major cuts in all armament. The jump is using 4 advantages 2 each of the Reduced Fuel and the Size Reduction.
 
Just to leap in here - Credits should not be used as a balancing point. Higher TL ships should obviously be more expensive, but if a ship costs twice as much it does _not_ follow that it should be matched against two ships that each cost half as much.

Just throwing that in there :) Credits do not equal Points.
 
Definitely not equal points Matt.

I'm just putting myself into that fleet admiral's shoes, that strategic planning for my 5-year strategic planning and spending.

"We can get 10x TL15 destroyers over the next 5 years at at 3 Billion Cr each, or 10 TL12s at 1.5 Billion Cr each.

The combat effectiveness of the TL15 is lacking unfortunately, as it seems 2 X TL12s perform better in every scenario, and even when put up against the TL15 itself"

Hrrm.. to me, the TL15 becomes the flag-ship bragging point, but not something i'd want more than one of :)
 
If i wasn't so swamped I'd do this.. so Chas! :)

I think you should grab the TL12 from above, make it TL15 with the following benefits:

Reduce Size of Drives
Reduce Weight of weapons
Increase Armour to 15
Supplement the savings with more weapons and more reinforced hull


Then compare cost vs the TL12 and see how many TL12s you can get. Then we can compare effectiveness ;)
 
I did make it, that's where the update came from. But it was tonnage focused and costs have bugs. I'll look to get this up properly with the new update which is now due out in days...
 
Back
Top