Recon Run

[Pennybags]

We ran into a question in our campaign this week. It was a Recon Run scenario, and ended up like this.
Attacker - Vorlon 3 Point Patrol, Defender Drakh 5 Point Patrol.

Now the question is since the Vorlons only have raid level ships he could only bring fighters. Now the fighters can't scan but Vorlon fighters can easily destroy ships. Half of my group thinks this scenario is an automatic loss for the Vorlon player because he can't field any ships. How does this scenario play out?

 

[prelude_to_war]

I would also consider it a loss since the objective can't be completed.

From a fluff POV, perhaps the Vorlons don't consider scanning enemy ships an important enough mission in the grand scheme of things.

<spiritual sounds effects>You do not understand...but you will....</Sound FX>

 

[CZuschlag]

Confirmed (mostly) on Rulesmasters:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22322&start=0

Greg Smith was the most in-the-know person in the ruling, however, you didn't get a full Mongoose (like Steele or msprange.)

 

[Ripple]

I disagree with this being an automatic loss. Look to the example of carrier clash which says re-roll if either side cannot put a ship in play that satisfies the requirement of carrying two fighters. If you race cannot field a ship at the said priority then you re-roll the scenario, if your race could field such a ship but you just haven't bought one...well maybe then you could say 'nya...you should have thought ahead'...but to say that in all the scenario's that have set FAP of 2 or 3 vorlons and shadows just lose at patrol...just not fair and flies in the face of the carrier clash precedent of if you can't then re-roll.

Ripple

 

[davyj0427]

I agree with you Ripple, (I'm the Vorlon player being discussed) How ever unlikely it is that you could roll a low level scenario, I did it last night. We played the battle with me (the Vorlon) using only fighters and true I couldn't fulfill the objective, 2 of the Drakh ships were destroyed and one left the table before the time limit expired. Which to me would indicate a withdrawal and a victory for me. (the Vorlon) Also from my point of view I was the attacker and according to some players in the group I shouldn't be able to show up to a battle that I Orchestrated is just plain stupid and a serious flaw in the campaign rules regarding Ancients.
But really I shouldn't be complaining because I have adaptive armor (sorry private joke to my group)
G

 

[H]

I would have to say you loose, and I recall thats how we have played things like this in the past, if you can't field a ship for a scenario (unless it specifically states to re-roll it) one side turns up, the other doesn't, thats was the downside of high priority fleets in campaigns, it has a hint of realism to it, as much as you can get from a game. Can you see the Allies landing on the beaches on D-Day and the Germans not being there.
oh blast, says eisenhower, no Germans, we can't automatically win, we will go and land on a different beach where we might find some Germans!
Likewise if you roll a scenario at some stage that uses all your ships, then later in the same turn someone attacks you, you can't defend it as you have no ships, so you automatically loose, you can't say thats unfair I have no ships you must attack someone else, Thats why we have the plus and minus 3, and random scenarios. If we chose these things, the Vorlons would always be choosing big war games, where they are amazingly strong, the centauri would choose raid games for the beamteam, the Narn would schoose skirmish and raid for a bat squad and so on. It's harsh I will grant you, but then someone rolling a blockade run with the drakh or ISA running has pretty much automatically lost, unless thy roll astoundingly well, as the raiders and whitestars only take one round of shooting before they can fly off the other side of the board, but the Abbai, or Narn, take several rounds longer, meaning they have an exceedingly tough time. I've kind of waffled on a tad to explain things, yes I added some sarcasm, that was merely for my own amusement. Perhaps this is of course something we could get clarification on for second ed, but I LIKE the fact you can force an enemy into an unwinneable position, it is of course random based on the dice roll. The vlorlons loose this game, but heck they could get an 8 war point anhilation scenario next time, where they would (probably) give the drakh a complete kicking, but do the drakh get to ask for a re-roll? nope. swings and roundabouts.

 

[Iain McGhee]

It would have to be a forfeit since you couldn't field any ships. Same thing often happens in campaigns if one side has lost all of it's low-PL ships and a low-point Patrol (or even Skirmish) game occurs. It's actually a rather sneaky strategy you can use if you're up against Ancients or Minbari although it depends a lot on the luck of the dice. Flipside of this is that if the high-PL fleets get to play at battle or War then many of the enemy ships will be destroyed or in drydock for 2 turns and after a couple of large engagements they will likely get a few turns where they automatically win since the other side may well have too few intact vessels to risk.

 

[Da Boss]

We play campaign slightly different

all battles are rolled after all chosen targets and fleets allocated then.

And in your example - the allies land and get beaten off by a mixture of infantry and light stuff but still loose because they don't count? Realistic?

I think the point is that they drive the enemy from the field and still lost - which makes no sense.

 

[CZuschlag]

Davyj0427:

If you let someone field only fighters, then you hose your opponent (in this case, the Drakh). The Drakh have zero --- zero (!!) weapons effective against fighters -- that Light Raider beam can be avoided with complete ease by any fighter. The only option you have is the mutual covering bunker-down formation:

.................. ---> ............ <---

which can't really move or complete any other objective. Against Vorlon fighters the Drakh don't have a chance at all. Is this fair? No, of course not --- it's absolutely busted. The ISA (if it has no allies) is even worse against this -- it has no paired ship to cover its rear arc. (The Vree may even be worse -- I have no idea how a Xorr will survive one strike from those awful Vorlon fighters). At absolute minimum, it's just as fair as what Hiffano suggests. And if two things rate equally, I'd give the vote to the official suggestion.

 

[Da Boss]

ISA- is that the guys with Minbari fighters with extra +1 to dogfights?? plus their ships are faster than the vorlon fighters - remember move 10 or they could just field their own fighters - hmm +4 dogfight and move 16 kinda makes it it one sided?

 

[lastbesthope]

ISA- is that the guys with Minbari fighters with extra +1 to dogfights??

Actually it's a +1 to CQ which helps in dogfights

LBH

 

[Da Boss]

kinda works out the same way - +4 dogfight vs +0 dogfight

 

[CZuschlag]

I don't know --- 9 on 1 (you'll get 6:1 only because of base to base contact restrictions) take that +4 to 0 and makes it -2. Um ... bye, bye, Nial. And then the Vorlons stay behind the isolated WhiteStar all day. Sure, you're down 3:4, but it'll take a miracle for you to lose.

Give the WhiteStar a ship to shoot to end the game -- very different story!

 

[voodoomachine]

I would have to say you loose, and I recall thats how we have played things like this in the past, if you can't field a ship for a scenario (unless it specifically states to re-roll it) one side turns up, the other doesn't, thats was the downside of high priority fleets in campaigns, it has a hint of realism to it, as much as you can get from a game. Can you see the Allies landing on the beaches on D-Day and the Germans not being there.

And that's cool. If this was war.

Which it isn't. It's a game, which suddenly isn't fun when you simply can't win. Not "can't" as in "This will be incredibly hard and almost impossible". "Can't" as in "There is no way, within the rules, for you to win this scenario."

The downside of high priority fleets in a campaign is that it is harder to field ships in lower level games. Sometimes you can only field one ship vs another fleet of 5 or 6. This is an acceptable difficulty to overcome, and means that people have to learn to play their fleets and use every advantage they can.

To simply show up and be told "We're sorry, you lost. Without any tactics, without any games. Due to luck." That's unacceptable in the group around here. People around here show up to play and have fun, not to screw someone out of a game just because "dumb luck" says they lose.

/rant

We would either reroll the scenario, or raise the priority level.

 

[Da Boss]

Are we assuming no shots as they come in and that the Whitestar does not power away on APTE

 

[H]

I would have to say you loose, and I recall thats how we have played things like this in the past, if you can't field a ship for a scenario (unless it specifically states to re-roll it) one side turns up, the other doesn't, thats was the downside of high priority fleets in campaigns, it has a hint of realism to it, as much as you can get from a game. Can you see the Allies landing on the beaches on D-Day and the Germans not being there.

And that's cool. If this was war.

Which it isn't. It's a game, which suddenly isn't fun when you simply can't win. Not "can't" as in "This will be incredibly hard and almost impossible". "Can't" as in "There is no way, within the rules, for you to win this scenario."

The downside of high priority fleets in a campaign is that it is harder to field ships in lower level games. Sometimes you can only field one ship vs another fleet of 5 or 6. This is an acceptable difficulty to overcome, and means that people have to learn to play their fleets and use every advantage they can.

To simply show up and be told "We're sorry, you lost. Without any tactics, without any games. Due to luck." That's unacceptable in the group around here. People around here show up to play and have fun, not to screw someone out of a game just because "dumb luck" says they lose.

/rant

We would either reroll the scenario, or raise the priority level.

It's harsh I will grant you, but then the campaign setting is a very simplistic War simulation, in war poop happens. Any game can see someone screwed over by someone rolling an insane number of 6-6 crits for example. If I can't get a dodgy sneaky advantage by preventing someone from fielding a fleet i would then feel harshed when they role a scenario where they can use their uber ships and kick my ass. If you don't like this, ignore the rules, and set up your own table to roll on? meaninf each scenario MUSt be raised to the minimal level for someone to field a ship perhaps, (this implies a ship they "could have" so they can't just buy a raft or armageddon ships to make everything that level

 

[davyj0427]

hiffano, If I was defending I would agree with you but I was the attacker That's like (to use an above example) the allies launching the attack on day and then saying "oh crap we have no soldiers" I was the attacker any war planner will make sure they have units to attack with before they make the attack. I can see both sides and of course I want the answer to be yes this works, but what is the point of playing when you have a good chance of not being able to play. theoretically I could play a whole campaign and never play a game and lose all the territory I take without a battle. Super fun.

 

[H]

I know, it sucks, apply the idea above, the priority level is raised to field the smallest ship in your fleet list, if you don't have that, then that IS your own fault and you deserve to loose ;-)
you are probably still ona hiding but at least you do have your theoretical chance.

 

[locarno24]

It's a 3 point patrol recon run, then yes, you lose.

However, remember that this is a campaign, so you can still turn up with three wings of vorlon fighters and whilst you may lose the battle you can still have fun blasting the snot out of the enemy ships before legging it. If your opponent comes out of the battle an Artemis heavy frigate worse off (for example) or gets one of his own fighter wings scragged for no major loss then it's all good.

 

[Locutus9956]

Erm, stop me if Im wrong here but isnt the scanning just extra victory points? ie you can still win by just trashing the enemy fleet?

I would say personally either house rule a reroll if the scenario is unplayable by either side or just accept it as a loss though (as harsh as it may be the campaign rules are a very rough war sim and if you cant field any ships small enough you could consider it that a small force was able slip past beneath the Vorlons notice in that situation)