Realism and design systems

ParanoidGamer said:
Gruffty the Hiver said:
Here you go, courtesy of your local friendly Hiver.... ;)
Thank you so much dear friend Hiver.
You're welcome :)
After giving the doc the 'once over' it is a bit 'involved'.
Methinks tis no more involved than LBB 6 or MT stargen....
I notice it says "11/25/05" meaning it's not a revision of the T5 or MGT star generation system.
Nope it's a replacement for the tables and some of the processes in LBB 6.
SO, while discussing this particular document is interesting, and may just be hyper-realistic,
I'd disagree with you about it being hyper-realstic.... ;)
how does it apply to T5/MGT?
It doesn't at the moment because, AFAIK, there isn't a MGT star system generation process to playtest, ditto for T5. However, I suspect that T5 will have big, juicey, chunks of LBB6 in it.

In a rich, thick meat sauce.

With croutons.

;)
 
2300 was a good (if calculator highly useful and spreadsheet better; Appleworks for the Apple //e made it even quick) system design, but what I could never figure out was how to go from minimum molecular mass retained to atmospheric compositions; I could make the list of what could be retained, but not what the mix was likely to be. In short, I could use it to exclude stuff, but not to figure out what was included, since not everything on the list could coexist stably.

But as to the placement methodology, I did, and do, like it. It's fairly similar to Starfire 3rd's (which uses a titus-bode with random start values).

So a good compromise would be the standard traveller size values (but with different generation methods to expand up through GG's), and a range of atmosphere types possible for various sizes and densities by zone: Hot zone, inner zone, hab zone, outer zone, cold (ice) zone...

For me, it needs to be something where I can just look it up to be useful. (or fully automated. It's a matter of lazy.)
 
AKAramis said:
2300 was a good (if calculator highly useful and spreadsheet better; Appleworks for the Apple //e made it even quick) system design, but what I could never figure out was how to go from minimum molecular mass retained to atmospheric compositions; I could make the list of what could be retained, but not what the mix was likely to be. In short, I could use it to exclude stuff, but not to figure out what was included, since not everything on the list could coexist stably.

Well, it sounds like you understood that the numbers on the big MMW table are the lightest gases that can be retained (so it can retain gases with molecular weights heavier than those numbers).

It certainly could have done with some advice on figuring out the exact mix though. Me, I just pull out some reasonable sounding numbers for the major gases and try not to think about the trace ones that have the fiddly reactions ;). I know enough chemistry that reactive gases like O2 and acids can only be there if they're actively produced by something, and that Cl and Fluorine are no-nos for atmospheric gases because they're so rare and so reactive.
 
Gruffty the Hiver said:
I'd disagree with you about it being hyper-realstic.... ;)

It's pretty realistic. Definitely good enough for most people I think, and certainly vastly superior to Book 6's system, though there are places where I have improved it further.
 
EDG said:
I find it interesting that you consider the stargen to be so expendable. I detect a general bias here (not just from you) - I get a sense of "it's OK to have a detailed ship design or chargen system that makes sense, but it's not OK to have a detailed world/stargen system that makes sense. At most, a simple world/stargen system that makes sense would be nice, but that's still distinctly optional."

Why should that be the case?

This has already been responded to? Characters are core. The rest is window dressing, including starship design.
 
pasuuli said:
This has already been responded to? Characters are core. The rest is window dressing, including starship design.

Characters and game engine are "core" only in the sense that you don't have a game without them, but that is certainly no justification for dismissing, playing down or ignoring everything else in favour of those.

That "window dressing" is what makes this game "scifi" instead of anything else. The ships, the technological assumptions, the worlds, the universe... all those things are critical for defining the feel and themes of the setting. They're not there just to tart the thing up to make it look pretty, they're critical parts of the game. Without them, you have nothing for the characters to do and nowhere for them to go (and nothing for them to get there in).
 
Gruffty the Hiver said:
ParanoidGamer said:
After giving the doc the 'once over' it is a bit 'involved'.
Methinks tis no more involved than LBB 6 or MT stargen.
...it's a replacement for the tables and some of the processes in LBB 6.
SO, while discussing this particular document is interesting, and may just be hyper-realistic,
I'd disagree with you about it being hyper-realstic.... ;)
how does it apply to T5/MGT?
It doesn't at the moment because, AFAIK, there isn't a MGT star system generation process to playtest, ditto for T5. However, I suspect that T5 will have big, juicey, chunks of LBB6 in it.

In a rich, thick meat sauce. With croutons. ;)

Ahhh this is all starting to make a much more sense. Since this all started in a T5 vs MGT thread, in immediate response to some MarcMiller bashing, I thought it was connected to some part of MGT and/or T5 that I hadn't seen yet.

In some ways makes the entire debate a bit silly.

But in the spirit of things, I think it's a total ignoring of realism to want a computer that you "auto get the exact software you need". as someone educated in the field of computers nearly as much as EDG is in arguing star theory, I find it highly unrealistic to thing that computers are just this little box that magically show up for a certain amount of cash all set and ready to go for the EXACT configuration of their ship.

How does the navigational data for jumps get into the computer? what about the knowledge database? who compiled all of it initially? who has been updating it? what's the configuration of your ship? Is it a custom design or 'off the lot' so to speak?

Expecting all this to just "be there" for a "one price-fits all" just ain't realistic even in the real world let alone in practice for a RPG system.
 
pasuuli said:
This has already been responded to? Characters are core. The rest is window dressing, including starship design.

For Traveller, starships have always been as important as characters to defining the setting.

Heck, in many parties, the ship is a significant NPC as well.

A starship is a stable setting element, a vehicle for the PC's, and if the GM considers a verbal interface to be trivial, almost a part of the crew.
 
EDG said:
pasuuli said:
This has already been responded to? Characters are core. The rest is window dressing, including starship design.
That "window dressing" is what makes this game "scifi" instead of anything else. The ships, the technological assumptions, the worlds, the universe... all those things are critical for defining the feel and themes of the setting. They're not there just to tart the thing up to make it look pretty, they're critical parts of the game. Without them, you have nothing for the characters to do and nowhere for them to go (and nothing for them to get there in).
Technological 'assumptions' typically vary in their realism. Laser based weapons... not too far fetched. Star Treck Transporters? Highly far fetched (converting all that matter into energy and then reassembling it? yeah).

So, what do we do? bow to realism and kill some of the greatest sci-fi settings/series ever? Kill Stargate (they have transporters), Star Trek and any others because they are not realistic?

ALL games need things to define their 'feel' Some are core (such as weapons, cultures, magic/psionics) and some are window dressing (exactly what that building looks like, do the ships have at most 3 sails or 4, is it hyperspace vs bubblespace vs warp drive vs jump).

The Honor Harrington books (The "Honorverse") are actually highly realistic for their STL starship mechanics. Having to speed up and constantly thrust to maintain that accelleration, not being able to turn on a dime, no instant transition to/from FTL travel etc. It makes for great battles when you read about it, and while complicated a great game (Saganami Island Tactical Simulator). Unfortunately, the battles using such a realistic system tend to take a quite a while to run through a single battle. I really enjoy the system and it is great when all I want to do is a ship to ship combat scenario in space.

So, while the realism in this setting/game is very high AND well done, if I'm in an RPG the question is do players want to take several hours for a single battle? Do the players need that much realism designed into the system.

Amazingly, how much 'window dressing' is realistic in a game. How much do you need and how much is 'too much'. I have books that help me describe every minute detail if I wish, from the difference between a brook and a stream to the exact color of different metals used in jewelry. They make for having great window dressing but I think most players would string up the GM if that happened.
 
I am going to step out on a limb here (or given the tempo of the conversation maybe out into open space). No game needs to be realistic; not one. However, every game needs to be "true" to its setting and milieu. If a game is space fantasy (i.e. Star Wars or Star Trek) it has to be true to it's science and its background and all things need to be relative (unless there is some explanation for why it isn't; but even that is keeping true to the system.)

For instance, in Star Wars they use hyperdrive - use of said hyperdrive involves a computer and some extensive calculation (it might be based on stellar systems as we understand them, or it could be based on the price of Corellian Sauerkraut, the point is no one says in the canon material); failure may result in "flying too close to a sun or running right through a supernova" which , given Han's tone, is probably bad. Now all of this may mean bupkus in the real world as we understand it but it works in Star Wars.

EDG may have a PhD in astrophysics or he may just have a real affinity for it, and so he may tweak systems to accurately represent the state of the art in astrophysics as he understands it - this mean his star systems would be different than what we get in Traveller or Star Wars or AstroVixens with Guns. Honestly I would expect this as it is his area of expertise; much as my games tend to reflect my areas of extreme knowledge. This then could become a clue - if I encounter a system that does not conform to "known" standards then I know this may be a clue to "Ancient" technology.

Now the heart of this argument/discussion seems to be centered on bashing those folks who don't care and those who seem to think it is too complex to be realistic. Frankly folks any of the above opinions is unnecessary - what it comes down to is "is this game fun"? For astrophysicists it may not be as the star systems in a "hard sci-fi" game are not true to what we know today; so be it. Follow the first law of RPG's and ignore those rules and add your own; I do with things I know.

What I am looking for, if and when I see a star generation system, is something consistent and applicable to the game - star systems should be somewhat realistic as a layman would understand them and anomalies should be recognizable as such (i.e. a star system with all planets supporting carbon-based life). If the system allows for gas giants anywhere in an orbital system; well I know that's not real but as long as the system allows for it consistently, well I can live with that; if the astrophysicists here can't, well, see the bold text above.

I, for one, have enjoyed the arguments here that have some crunch to them but this whole idea that anyone is wrong, as expressed here merely points out that every side of this equation is both right and wrong.

my .02
 
The "it's supposed to be fun" argument is a no-brainer, but also fairly meaningless IMO. Of course it's supposed to be fun to play, but to be honest I think an RPG can only go so far to encourage that - a lot of that is down to the group sitting down around the table. And "fun" is a highly subjective term anyway - a lot of CT fans enjoyed making characters or ships or planets for their own sake as a way to pass the rainy days (and incidentally, I think that MGT should retain that "solo play" aspect - I don't see why the game has to be focussed solely on round-the-table group play). Others didn't enjoy that so much and got their fun out of playing the game with other people. Neither side is right or wrong, and neither side has the right to say that their "fun" is more valid than anyone else's. So "fun" isn't really a good way to constrain game design because it's so subjective - "simplicity" and "ease of use" are a lot more objective.

Ultimately, what I want to see and what I'm arguing for is as few holes as possible in the design systems (be they ship, character, or star/planet). Whether one knows about the subject enough to spot them or care about them isn't really the issue - the fact is, the hole is still there. The way I see it, there's three things at play here - realism, internal consistency, and sensibility - and all three are important. One could argue that consistency and sensibility are more important than realism, but I think they're more inter-related than people give them credit for. Magic may be unrealistic, internally consistent and sensible (following some kind of logic) but we're talking about a Scifi game here, and Traveller has traditionally always had a "veneer of realism" (as Aramis put it). I think that sense of realism is an essential part of the game (even if in practice it was poorly executed by the designers) - we wouldn't have had books like Scouts, or FF&S or the World Builders Handbook or the more realistic GURPS Traveller books like First In and Far Trader otherwise.

Taking Regina as an example - it's a habitable world around a gas giant. OK, so that means that it has to be tidelocked to the gas giant (like any moon is around a gas giant). That means its effective day length (relative to the sun) is very long (about 1.5 months long in fact) since it's orbiting at 55 radii. That means it's not actually all that habitable after all. So it's wrong to portray it an earthlike habitable world because it can't be if you follow the logic - it's neither realistic nor does it make sense. So it's a problem.

White dwarfs are another example. Traveller generates loads of Close white dwarf companions in binary systems and yet has habitable worlds close to the primary star. But if you have a white dwarf companion in a "Close" orbit, that means that it was once a red giant star that spiralled in toward the primary. There'd be mass exchange, streamers of material thrown everywhere, a lot more heat, and planets would be demolished, roasted, or ejected from the system for that to be the case. There's no way in hell you'd get an earthlike, habitable world sitting in orbit 3 around the primary star after that. (And not only does Regina have this situation but even worse, Guaran (the Hiver homeworld) has it as well - so really the Hivers shouldn't even exist as their system is described). Again, it's neither realistic nor sensible. Again, it's another problem, and a very widespread one.

It's that sort of thing that I want to get rid of in Traveller. These are bugs of the game's stargen rules, not features - they are results that don't make sense and aren't realistic either. The "Ancients did it" excuse only works so many times before you start wondering why the entire universe is full of wacky exceptions and very little is actually as it should be. There may be some degree of internal consistency (which alone means nothing, since the system can be internally consistent while being completely broken), but without realism (closeness to reality) and sensibility ("does it work logically?") to temper it then it's not really a useful system. And I really don't think anyone wants something that can be torn apart logically or runs contrary to what we're familiar with because that would distract from the gameplay with all the awkward questions that result from it.

And that's it, that's all I'm arguing for. I want a game that is as realistic, internally consistent and sensible as possible while also being as simple as possible and straightforward to play (which hopefully will make the game "fun").

I don't want Traveller to be "dumbed down" or over-abstracted or turned into something it's not - if you want a pure gonzo space opera setting then that's not Traveller and it never has been, and I think it's wrong to try to push Traveller in that direction - that's not being "true to Traveller's milieu". I don't think (and have never argued) that people are wrong to want games to be enjoyable, or that they're wrong to not care about realism... I just think it's wrong to over-simplify or reduce or remove the realism in Traveller. Sure, it may have space opera elements but they're tempered by the gritty feel of the setting and the detail level of the design systems it's had, and I think that should be preserved. If you want an "anything goes, throw realism out of the window" setting then you'd be better served by playing another game that has that kind of feel, like Star Wars or Fading Suns or something.
 
EDG said:
captainjack23 said:
Given what you said about orbit formation, is there any way to predict or "tableify" the orbital distances of planets in a starsystem ? It sounds like "whatever you feel like" is what the above boils down to ?(I know that planetary types have required distances to form, such as the habitable zone); or is there any link between orbital placement and star mass ?

I think the best way is 2300AD's system. You start with a random orbit between 0.1 and 1 AU, and then roll on a table of multipliers that go from say 1.3 to 2.5 to determine each orbit after that. You multiply the previous orbit by the multiplier to get the new orbit, then roll on the multiplier table again to find the next out out, and so on.

In our case, we started with an orbit at 0.4 AU (Mercury), multiplied that by 1.8 (roughly) to get 0.7 AU (Venus), multiplied that by 1.4 to get Earth (1 AU), multiplied that by 1.6 AU to get Mars... and so on.

That way you get a variety of configurations, and all the systems are different. Add some eccenricity to the mix and things start getting interesting.

Okay, so for just stars and planets (ignoring companion stars for the moment)


Sounds like:
a basic roll of 2d6 for planets is as good as any, with possibly some increase for massy stars that aren't giants....but asuming that there may be more, just these are significant planets - (nebulously defined)

an initial orbit of 2d6-2/10 AU (with 0 quantified as less than .1).

space the orbits out randomly by -say (2d6 x2 )/10

quantify planets as GG / non GG (1-2GG/3-5 NGG/6 Belt perhaps),

Assign to orbits appropriately (close GG < likely than outside the snow line)

Pick best position for starport world based on its type.

Add moons and belts


Companion stars do seem to muck things up - I'd either put one automatically in the last planet place and/or assume that the reason Traveller hexes are off by a factor of 1/2-1/3 is exactly that double star systems woth close enough companions to count as part of the planetary system are either unlikely to produce anything interesting or livable, OR (heres the tricky part) are MUCH harder to connect to via jump.


Comments ?
 
captainjack23 said:
Sounds like:
a basic roll of 2d6 for planets is as good as any, with possibly some increase for massy stars that aren't giants....but asuming that there may be more, just these are significant planets - (nebulously defined)

an initial orbit of 2d6-2/10 AU (with 0 quantified as less than .1).

space the orbits out randomly by -say (2d6 x2 )/10

quantify planets as GG / non GG (1-2GG/3-5 NGG/6 Belt perhaps),

Assign to orbits appropriately (close GG < likely than outside the snow line)

Pick best position for starport world based on its type.

Add moons and belts

I don't think its worth coming up with an entirely new system to place planets and make systems. I think what needs to be done is that we need (initially) a system that generates the mainworld of a system while taking into account the primary star and the planets' orbital placement. The problem with book 3 is that it just makes the planet in a contextual vacuum, and book 6 creates too much detail when you just want to know the mainworld and has problems with the star types.

What we need at first is a slightly more detailed, internally consistent 'book 3' type system so people can come up with mainworlds for the hexes on the map, and then and extended system to generate the complete planetary system can come later on - but they HAVE to be internally consistent. One huge problem with Book 6 is that mainworlds created from scratch using the Expanded worldgen there bear no resemblance whatsoever to the mainworlds created from scratch with Book 3. You can see what a "book 6 sector" looks like here - all those size S worlds come from the fact that they orbit red dwarf stars, which according to the rules give size penalties to their planets.

I do have a fixed system based on CT that creates the mainworld along with the star and defines where it is in the system (it doesn't have to be in the habitable zone, but it usually is), but I don't want to publicise it until I know what Mongoose are planning to do.


Companion stars do seem to muck things up - I'd either put one automatically in the last planet place and/or assume that the reason Traveller hexes are off by a factor of 1/2-1/3 is exactly that double star systems woth close enough companions to count as part of the planetary system are either unlikely to produce anything interesting or livable, OR (heres the tricky part) are MUCH harder to connect to via jump.

I think it's more likely that the "empty hexes" actually contain things like brown dwarfs or barren systems (with no planets). Companion stars don't really muck things up though - if there's a habitable world there then just assume that the companion is far enough away to not affect it.
 
EDG said:
captainjack23 said:
Sounds like:
a basic roll of 2d6 for planets is as good as any, with possibly some increase for massy stars that aren't giants....but asuming that there may be more, just these are significant planets - (nebulously defined)

an initial orbit of 2d6-2/10 AU (with 0 quantified as less than .1).

space the orbits out randomly by -say (2d6 x2 )/10

quantify planets as GG / non GG (1-2GG/3-5 NGG/6 Belt perhaps),

Assign to orbits appropriately (close GG < likely than outside the snow line)

Pick best position for starport world based on its type.

Add moons and belts

I don't think its worth coming up with an entirely new system to place planets and make systems.
<snip>

Well, I guess the question is, if this was a de novo system, would it scream "I'm inaccurate" independent of the planetary generation used ?

Another general question - it seems like you're suggesting that planets should imply the starsytems...am I misunderstanding ?

I think it's more likely that the "empty hexes" actually contain things like brown dwarfs or barren systems (with no planets). Companion stars don't really muck things up though - if there's a habitable world there then just assume that the companion is far enough away to not affect it.

That works well enough for hexes with noted star sytems, problem is, much of the history and sociology of the OTU relies on having areas where no refueling is possible (realistic accuracy aside). Do dwarves and boring systems actually have no source of H2 at all ?

I'm not an astrophysicist ;) , but it seems unlikely.
 
captainjack23 said:
Well, I guess the question is, if this was a de novo system, would it scream "I'm inaccurate" independent of the planetary generation used ?

As described I think it's too vague to say... it could be made accurate with more detail, but as it stands it doesn't seem to provide much useful info. I think it'd be more useful (and less effort) to tweak the existing CT system than come up with a new one.


Another general question - it seems like you're suggesting that planets should imply the starsytems...am I misunderstanding ?

Traditionally the mainworld gets generated first because it's what's shown in the hex on the map. So by implication the rest of the system should be such that it allows that mainworld to exist. That was a problem with Book 6, because it was possible to get habitable planets orbiting red dwarfs... but those planets were too big for the stars, and those stars didn't even have habitable zones in the numbered orbits (they were within orbit 0).

So if you're making the mainworld first then yes, the planet does imply what the star system is like. If you're just making the whole system from scratch though, the mainworld will come out of that.


That works well enough for hexes with noted star sytems, problem is, much of the history and sociology of the OTU relies on having areas where no refueling is possible (realistic accuracy aside). Do dwarves and boring systems actually have no source of H2 at all ?

I'm not an astrophysicist ;) , but it seems unlikely.

You can't skim brown dwarfs (their surface gravity is ridiculously high, plus they're damn hot :) ), but they can have moons with ice on their surfaces that can be mined for H2. And generally (unless the star was ejected from another system) the barren systems should still have some degree of icy cometary debris - then again they may not since whatever made them barren may also have stripped them of their cometary clouds.
 
ParanoidGamer said:
Star Treck Transporters? Highly far fetched (converting all that matter into energy and then reassembling it? yeah).

Perhaps it is more of a quantum tuneling than a matter-energy-matter conversion. :roll: :wink:
 
atpollard said:
ParanoidGamer said:
Star Treck Transporters? Highly far fetched (converting all that matter into energy and then reassembling it? yeah).

Perhaps it is more of a quantum tuneling than a matter-energy-matter conversion. :roll: :wink:
Not quite sure what "quantum tunneling" is... but definitely the transporter as described in these settings are totally unrealistic, and IMO completely impossible.

Here's another 'realism' issue...
At least in GT, a ships velocity is described in "Gs" as in how many gravities. Unfortunately 1G is 1 gravity, which is an acceleration of 32 ft/sec-sq. If something moves at 5g, then it is accelerating at five times earth gravity, or 160 ft/sec-sq.

So, why is a steady velocity listed in "Gs". It's one thing I can't stand in any sci-fi universe when a ship suddenly "increases it's velocity from 1g to 5g and immediately overtakes your ship going at 3g. That's why I love the Honorverse so much. "G"s are an acceleration, not a velocity.

So how does this "realism" get fixed in Traveller, particularly in starship combat
 
ParanoidGamer said:
At least in GT, a ships velocity is described in "Gs" as in how many gravities.

No, they're not. The ship's Acceleration is very clearly listed in Gs in the GT corebook. Look at all the ship stats, they give "Accel" in G and Top Air Speed in mph. Nowhere does it claim that the ship's velocity is in Gs.

SJG just don't make that kind of stupid mistake.
 
ParanoidGamer said:
But in the spirit of things, I think it's a total ignoring of realism to want a computer that you "auto get the exact software you need". as someone educated in the field of computers nearly as much as EDG is in arguing star theory, I find it highly unrealistic to thing that computers are just this little box that magically show up for a certain amount of cash all set and ready to go for the EXACT configuration of their ship.

How does the navigational data for jumps get into the computer? what about the knowledge database? who compiled all of it initially? who has been updating it? what's the configuration of your ship? Is it a custom design or 'off the lot' so to speak?

Expecting all this to just "be there" for a "one price-fits all" just ain't realistic even in the real world let alone in practice for a RPG system.

I'm curious as to what area of computers you're educated in? This is not meant as flame bait, it's just that most people who talk about computers are referring to PC and server networks that don't reflect vehicle computing.

I work in the car industry, specifically the mechanical design of electo-mech modules that the driver interfaces with to control the vehicle. There is no single central computer that controls it all that the customer decides what software to instal after they've bought the car. Each module arrives in the assembly plant with it's (unique) control software already installed as part of the delivery price.

The realistic approach is to dump computers completely and assume the computing needed to fully control a spaceship/starship is part of the bridge tonnage and cost. Part of that cost is the unique software needed to control that ship. LBB 5 smallcraft don't need a seperate computer.
 
EDG said:
ParanoidGamer said:
At least in GT, a ships velocity is described in "Gs" as in how many gravities.

No, they're not. The ship's Acceleration is very clearly listed in Gs in the GT corebook. Look at all the ship stats, they give "Accel" in G and Top Air Speed in mph. Nowhere does it claim that the ship's velocity is in Gs.

SJG just don't make that kind of stupid mistake.

I never noticed any refernce to Gs as velocity in TNE either -- it's clearly described and implemented as acceleration.
 
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