Ready Actions and the skinnie heavy Speeder.

[The Legend]

Ok the Skinnie heavy speeder has to take a ready action in order to move at Hover.

It also has to take a Ready action in order to take a shot with the heavy laser.

In the section of the rule book that covers the hover special rules it states that at any point in the movement you can fire as if you were doing a shoot action.

Under Ready it states that a ready action can only be used for one independent effect.

Now this can be twisted several ways.

1. The move and shoot actions are seperate actions so the Ready can only be used for one of those instances.

2 The Hover & Shoot action are one action and therefore one effect and the Heavy laser and Hover action can be used.

I was thinking about this and have come to the conclusion that there are two crew on board and therefore unlike say a Venerable Marauder with only one crew they can both ready themselves to use the action they are dedicated to.

Ideas?

 

[Goldwyrm]

I voted that they can shoot the heavy laser while on hover. At least I would allow you to do it if we were playing together.

I just got my Skinnie army book on Thursday. From page 20 of the background fluff-

Two-seater versions mount a heavy weapons pintle in their rear hardpoint, enabling them to engage the enemy in a strafing run and then dispatch any survivors as they sweep past.

Question is whether that occurs in one turn or two?:wink:

Now if it were front fix mounted, I would have said that it might not be able to use the hover ready to fire a ready weapon. I'd support having to go slow to fire the weapon supported by the unstable weapon platform rule for the constrictor cannons. But those are fixed forward firing constrictors and that rule does not effect the rear firing mass driver before upgrading to heavy laser.

The main thing for me is they have two crewmen. If I ready a unit, there is precedent superceding the original ready rules where 2 different actions can occur on a ready within the same unit. Roughneck Gossard's expert engineer training is the example I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[cordas]

Hover and fire a ready weapon are two different actions, the rules state that ready only allows you to do one thing.

Yes this does make the Heavy laser on the Heavy Speeder a bit of a white elephant, but so is putting a thermic lance on a Grizzlie.

 

[The Legend]

Hover and fire a ready weapon are two different actions, the rules state that ready only allows you to do one thing.

I do have to disagree. The Hover action allows you to fire as if it were a shoot action. So why does that then discount the Heavy laser from taking the Ready as well. especially taking into account the description of the unit in the Army Book and the ruling description for Hover and using attacks during that.

Yes this does make the Heavy laser on the Heavy Speeder a bit of a white elephant, but so is putting a thermic lance on a Grizzlie.

Not entirely sure what you mean here. :?

The main thing for me is they have two crewmen. If I ready a unit, there is precedent superceding the original ready rules where 2 different actions can occur on a ready within the same unit. Roughneck Gossard's expert engineer training is the example I can think of off the top of my head.

Good point Goldwyrm I think that every wargame in existance has exceptions to any precident. In this case it's very much a case of the way in which you interpret the wording for the rules. If you take the Hover description (which I must point out is after the Ready rules description) then it sings in favour of the skinnies.

 

[cordas]

Hover allows you to fire any normal weapons and requires a ready action to use. Ready weapons however are weapons that require a specific ready action to be fired. As the rules say a ready action can only be used to do one thing. What does it say about ready actions in the main rule book?

Ready actions are generaly described as actions taken by the entire unit, not by individual models in the unit. What other unit can gain the full benefits of 2 different ready bonuses from one ready action? Where is the exception that says a heavy speeder can this, and no hover saying "you can hover and shoot" doesn't do it.

As for my comments about the thermic lance, its a 30 point weapon that whilst being devastingly useful is so short ranged that its practicaly un-usable. It could well be that the Heavy Laser is pretty much the same for the Heavy Speeder, well not quite as useless as you can still park it up and just lash out across the battlefield each turn with the HL, using the HL armed HS almost as an emplacement.

 

[Rob_A]

second choice, that's why it has 2 crewmen!
:wink:

 

[cordas]

Wonders if its what people want, or what the rules actually say. When the rules say in black and white that a ready action can only be used to do ONE thing, I take it thats what it means. The fact that a unit can jump or hover and fire weapons is completely seperate.

 

[Rob_A]

So in essence, there's common sense, versus Rules Lawyering? :roll:

 

[cordas]

So in essence, there's common sense, versus Rules Lawyering? :roll:

Yup, thats the way I see it. Squads can't take advantage of using different ready actions.

 

[MaxSteiner]

Shame it so difficult to get official rulings these days.
I'd go with the single action per ready ruling myself though personally.... but its worth checking

 

[BuShips]

I'd go with the third option and wait for the unit card. :lol:

 

[cordas]

I'd go with the third option and wait for the unit card. :lol:

Ever helpfull there Bu, but as we still don't know when SST:Evo is officaly going to hit the stores, and we want to have games now.....

 

[BuShips]

I'd go with the third option and wait for the unit card. :lol:

Ever helpfull there Bu, but as we still don't know when SST:Evo is officaly going to hit the stores, and we want to have games now.....

The emoticon says it all. I'm just a cruel, cruel man. :wink:
In offering a slightly less playful answer, you could always try the rulemasters. It's not like you'll lose a coin in the slot you know.

 

[cordas]

All ready done Bu.... before you posted this

 

[BuShips]

All ready done Bu.... before you posted this

Well, it's sort of like fishing. Now you can sit back and see if something bites.

 

[cordas]

All ready done Bu.... before you posted this

Well, it's sort of like fishing. Now you can sit back and see if something bites.

Given the posts I have put there over the last week, without any answer I won't be holding my breath for a quick answer.

 

[Makaiju]

This seems like one of those topics that may not get the Mongoose response that we hope for. Mainly because I think the consensus of the forums is leaning towards the answer they want. (As Matt's said in the past, if we seem to get the rule right they don't always post comments to tell us we are right.)

I wish I had my main rule book with me because it gives the exact example you are talking about... minus the skinnie vehicle.

The rules says that if an MI takes one action to ready, he can then use his next action to either "jump" OR fire his special weapon. (I forget which weapon they use as the example in the book.) The book then goes on to say that since the CAP trooper can't "stack" or "save" ready actions, that once he uses it to 'jump' that the ready action is not available to trigger the use of the special weapon.

So even though the JUMP rule normally lets you move and shoot, you can't do it if the weapon you have needs a ready action to fire. This rule prompted debates over the phrase "ready weapon" vs. "readied weapon" and was brought up here over and over and over. I'm sure if we search the right terms we'd even find clarification of Cordas' question. Again back then it was only referring to what a CAP trooper could do but the rules are the same with the Skinnie Heavy Speeder. (and I know Matt helped clarify the rule then. Maybe another reason Mongoose hasn't chimed in yet?)

Still... Cordas, I can see some small reasons for the heavy weapon on the speeder. You could take your first turn and move the speeder as normal with your first action and ready it with your 2nd action. Then on your second turn you could 'hover' a big distance and use your second action to 'ready'. Now your deep in enemy lines and ready to shoot the big gun off. This is a very devastating thing to do as a bug player.... (you do that with your Hoppers and then use the brain bug talent that gives a unit an extra action. It in effect gives your hoppers 1 turn where they can take 2 hover actions.)

Otherwise it's putting a Heavy Weapon on a speeder just seems like a fast way to move a slow shooting big weapon. Hover your platform into position on turn one and then start shooting from there out. If the enemy starts to move on your position, you can hover out real fast.

I hope I don't sound like a total wank but on one other note of 'It makes sense more then being a rule interpretation' is the main reason you decide to do something, it's probably not official\tournament legal. Nothing wrong with using any rules you want with friends or if the rule is declared up front. Game developers are pretty up front that rules and balancing rules are more important then the fluff interpretation. It's the one 'good job' nod I will give GW. In 40K players constantly complained that a rule didn't make sense because science works like "this". So GW made fluff that said "Space Marines don't know how their tech works. They just know that if a Tech Priest pours sacred oil over the gun and prays the correct prayer, that the gun works. Skip those steps, and the Space Marine gun is just an awkward club because it's not going to shoot."

 

[cordas]

Actually, this wasn't posted by me. It was posted by the The Legend, a real world mate of mine. I agree with your reading, and apparently what Matt has said at some point in the past.

A readied Heavy speeder with a heavy laser, can either fire the laser or hover - not both.

 

[Goldwyrm]

I voted that they can shoot the heavy laser while on hover. At least I would allow you to do it if we were playing together.

I just got my Skinnie army book on Thursday. From page 20 of the background fluff-

Two-seater versions mount a heavy weapons pintle in their rear hardpoint, enabling them to engage the enemy in a strafing run and then dispatch any survivors as they sweep past.

Question is whether that occurs in one turn or two?:wink:

To follow the fluff and the rules as written, as I alluded to earlier all one needs to do is ready/hover+strafe in turn 1 and then in turn two if the Heavy Speeder is past the enemy unit it can ready and fire the heavy laser from a stationary position.

Given the two crewman, I'd still lean in favor of allowing an opponent to do both a hover and shot, with the caveat that if the vehicle sustains even 1 hit of damage that it would not be able to ready separate systems. Or as a compromise, perhaps a regular move from the driver with the ready being applied only to the tailgunner weapon. But those two options are my house rule opinions.

For these situations, I'd like to see "multi-crew" as a vehicle trait that allows independent use of ready actions for drivers and gunners.

 

[cordas]

For these situations, I'd like to see "multi-crew" as a vehicle trait that allows independent use of ready actions for drivers and gunners.

There is no trait, and following this logic then why can't an infantry squad have some members move, and other shoot? The game is unit based not individual models, there are no special rules that allow any unit to do 2 different actions because they have more than one model in the unit.