Reaction Question

[GhostWolf69]

And here I thought some of the transports can't react...

A MEA Technical don't have a problem with Reacting as far as I can tell...

But I might be missing something on the card...

Warrior can't react and most Armor can't react it seems... but Technicals and Shadows CAN.

/wolf

 

[Hiromoon]

*checks what he has* Hmm.. must be a side effect of being Armored...

 

[BuShips]

Wouldn't suppresed take away the only move action available to the unit stopping it from boarding (unless it was moving as a reaction). Either that or only half the models should be able to mount??

Yes, their next normal Action is removed so they had better be within a single movement of the vehicle or they have to stay pinned down. It does say therefore that there are things you can do in a Reaction that give you more options than when in a regular turn. It's another reason to keep empty vehicles close to your engaged infantry in case of suppression. :idea:

 

[The Old Soldier]

Matt has said that he has no problem with a Suppressed unit of infantry boarding a vehicle, as being Suppressed takes away a future Action but does not inhibit a Move. A more restrictive solution might be to force the infantry to expend their Move to get to the unengaged side of the vehicle and then spend their next turn to board under less threatening conditions, but I'm sure Matt was thinking in terms of game flow (which is a good thing).

See this (reaction) is where I don't really get it... someone has to explain this one to me like I was a five year old. Cause no matter how I twist or turn I can't get what they are trying to say.

I have not read all the comment everywhere about this and honestly the rules are pretty vague as written.

Here is the way I read the rules... I have NO IDEA If this is what Matt et al. inteded:

example1:
My Inf Unit with transport is taking fire.
Both units can react.
Inf unit reacts by mounting the tranport.
Transport reacts by moving away, with the inf unit inside.

Question 1: Is this a valid procedure?

YES

Question 2: Are there any other pre-requisite for this to be a valid option that I have not mentioned here?

Each vehicle has what it can and can't do, many can not react, but Technicals and Shadows can.

Question 3: What happens in My next turn? Can both my units still act twice? Or are they both reduced to ONE action because of the mounting in my opponents turn?

As Long as the unit remains mounted the VEHICLE may take two actions as normal, otherwise using the rules for mounting and dismounting printed on the vehicle card.

example2:
My Inf Unit with transport is taking fire.
The infantry becomes supressed.
Both units can react.
Inf unit reacts by mounting the tranport (a valid move action under supression).
Transport reacts by moving away, with the inf unit inside.

Matt stated yes. ( I think he is mistaken not understanding the question. I say a unit would not react if it became suppressed.) BUT, under Matts answer there would be no penality since next turn the unit would lose it's second action anyway due to mounting/dismounting rules written on the card.

Question 4: During my next turn... what happens with my suppressed mounted inf unit?

Nothing it counts as not being on the table as long as it is mounted.

Question 5: Can it even attempt to dismount in the following turn?

Yes

Question 6: It has to "lose" one action due to suppression, but in a turn where it mounts or dismounts it is only allowed one action... so what happens here?

By Matts response nothing happens. It would act as normal.

Question 7: Do I have to stay in the car for one full round before moving out again?

No

/wolf

I answered all your question from the rules as written. The answers are in Bold text.

 

[voncougar]

I would not have a problem with a Move action on the Vehicles part.

It would be one Move in and Unload.

Or Upload and Move out.

Where as in both cases all the Infantry can do is Move ONCE on or off the Transport.

/wolf

I don't get it...why does the Transport get TWO actions (load/unload and something else) but the infantry only get the load/unload?
If played as written, BOTH either get TWO actions or ONE action.

 

[BuShips]

I'll answer how I think Matt has already indicated (to be ammended by Matt if he thinks I'm wrong :wink-

Question 4: During my next turn... what happens with my suppressed mounted inf unit?

* They get "unsuppressed" by the fact that they no longer are out in the open. The penalty is removed and they now can act normally.

Question 5: Can it even attempt to dismount in the following turn?

* Yes. As they are no longer under the conditions that set up the Suppression any penalty is removed. It's a free pass.

Question 6: It has to "lose" one action due to suppression, but in a turn where it mounts or dismounts it is only allowed one action... so what happens here?

* Nothing. The two events are exclusive to each other. Matt has said that "When suppressed, you _lose_ actions - you do not expend them to 'clear' the suppression."

Question 7: Do I have to stay in the car for one full round before moving out again?

*I'd say you are free to make all normal choices. It was a free pass, remember?

/wolf

 

[BuShips]

I would not have a problem with a Move action on the Vehicles part.

It would be one Move in and Unload.

Or Upload and Move out.

Where as in both cases all the Infantry can do is Move ONCE on or off the Transport.

/wolf

I don't get it...why does the Transport get TWO actions (load/unload and something else) but the infantry only get the load/unload?
If played as written, BOTH either get TWO actions or ONE action.

Due to the way that the card rules can be read that they limit the one Action of the infantry to loading/unloading, while not specifying in a similar way for the vehicle. The single Action of the vehicle is not specified that it is helping in the proceedure so that it could take other options such as shooting or moving.

 

[cordas]

Argh how to make a dogs breakfast out of a steak sandwich. There are so many inconsistancies that it beggars belief.

A suppressed (and double suppressed unit :? unit can mount a transport as a reaction move..

Ok it can then unmount next turn as 1 action even if it was suppressed? what if it was doubly suppressed?
How can a suppressed unit dismount in 1 action if a non suppressed unit takes 2 actions to dismount?
Again what about a doubly suppressed unit that mounted up in reaction?
How can a unit with no actions dismount as per normal when it takes a non doubly suppressed unit 2 actions to dismount?

Buship said that maybe Matt has answered by saying a suppressed unit looses its suppression if it mounts up because it is "no longer out in the open" all I can answer to that is b*&&*%^s. Then why is there nothing in the rules to say that... What about units that retreated out of LOS back into woods or buildings... Sorry Bu but that answer doesn't hold any water.

What I like(d) about BF:Evo was that it is supposed to be a simple system...

 

[BuShips]

Argh how to make a dogs breakfast out of a steak sandwich. There are so many inconsistancies that it beggars belief.

A suppressed (and double suppressed unit :? unit can mount a transport as a reaction move..

Ok it can then unmount next turn as 1 action even if it was suppressed? what if it was doubly suppressed?
How can a suppressed unit dismount in 1 action if a non suppressed unit takes 2 actions to dismount?
Again what about a doubly suppressed unit that mounted up in reaction?
How can a unit with no actions dismount as per normal when it takes a non doubly suppressed unit 2 actions to dismount?

Buship said that maybe Matt has answered by saying a suppressed unit looses its suppression if it mounts up because it is "no longer out in the open" all I can answer to that is b*&&*%^s. Then why is there nothing in the rules to say that... What about units that retreated out of LOS back into woods or buildings... Sorry Bu but that answer doesn't hold any water.

What I like(d) about BF:Evo was that it is supposed to be a simple system...

Hey, I understand . Perhaps it would be better if we waited for some "official" participation. I also do not want to read more into what Matt has said without him expanding upon it himself. I, like you, see some loopholes that allow some "interesting" :roll: things to be done regarding Reactions that you could not do in your own Player Turn.

 

[GhostWolf69]

ok... I think I get it now.

Good answers every one, thanks for your input.

There must be an easier way to explain all this on the cards/rules though. Cause they way they are now clearly causes some confusion.

/wolf

 

[BuShips]

cordas, also make note so that I am not putting words into Matt's mouth that the only thing he has said that I have quoted here is "When suppressed, you _lose_ actions - you do not expend them to 'clear' the suppression."

It still might be that Matt will impose those lost Action(s) on the suppressed infantry even though they are now safely driving away in a vehicle. It was my own comment that said that they might get away "clean". That was based upon my own supposition that if they were going to be allowed to embark during a Reaction then they were in fact no longer kissing the ground with bullets flying over their heads :roll:.

The way to nip this in the bud would be to only allow a Move Reaction to be to "move" or to "beat feet". If you only allowed loading and unloading during a player's normal turn this chain would be broken.

Like I had alluded to, you might only allow the retreating infantry to hide behind the vehicle during a Reaction but not to board it, which could be said to take more time to happen (like in a player turn).

 

[BuShips]

ok... I think I get it now.

/wolf

OK, so could you explain it all back to me? :lol:

It does appear to be an exploit, doesn't it?

 

[voncougar]

I don't get it...why does the Transport get TWO actions (load/unload and something else) but the infantry only get the load/unload?
If played as written, BOTH either get TWO actions or ONE action.

Due to the way that the card rules can be read that they limit the one Action of the infantry to loading/unloading, while not specifying in a similar way for the vehicle. The single Action of the vehicle is not specified that it is helping in the proceedure so that it could take other options such as shooting or moving.

But the card does state "...both the models and the [vehicle] may only take a single action in that turn."
So wouldn't they both have to stay put? By the wording on the card, both are limited to the same penalty, not just the infantry...right?

 

[BuShips]

But the card does state "...both the models and the [vehicle] may only take a single action in that turn."
So wouldn't they both have to stay put? By the wording on the card, both are limited to the same penalty, not just the infantry...right?

Yes, it is true that in using the Transport rule that both of the units lose one of their two Actions. The difference is that the infantry must also use the single remaining Action (that's the key point here) to mount the transport. Yes, this has been confirmed and is no longer in dispute. It thus takes both Actions during a Player Turn for infantry to mount the transport and the one stated lost Action for the transport itself. This leaves the transport with its remaining Action free to choose what to do.

It's a case of misdirection somewhat in the card. It tends to get you to focus upon the lost Actions and not what to do with the remaining ones. Does that explain it satisfactorily?

BTW, that is cordas's point regarding transports. You cannot on a single turn move towards a transport and then board it. You must already be next to it (within one normal Move distance). You also cannot conversely dismount and Move away such as into Cover without it being right next to the transport. I wonder if Matt would want to take back that determination and allow what cordas wants. I do think that description is closer to what the card is saying.

 

[BuShips]

What I'm saying just above is that instead of making the mounting cost outside of the additional infantry Move cost that it could be included as that cost. This allows the infantry to have an additional Action to do over the Turn. It also would seem to be more in line to mounting during a Reaction, as that does not seem to be happening over the same time as an entire Player Turn (although of course that is not stated).

 

[voncougar]

What I'm saying just above is that instead of making the mounting cost outside of the additional infantry Move cost that it could be included as that cost. This allows the infantry to have an additional Action to do over the Turn. It also would seem to be more in line to mounting during a Reaction, as that does not seem to be happening over the same time as an entire Player Turn (although of course that is not stated).

I agree whole-heartidly.
And now I completely understand what happens.
I still don't like it, though, and it doesn't make sense to me that the vehicle gets another action and the infantry don't. Like you said above, maybe Matt will make a ruling that way, but yeah, now I dig.

Many thanks!

 

[cordas]

Argh, clear as mud, especaily when matt says read the rules as written as his answer to most rules questions. If the aimed for rule is "infantry only having a (dis)mount action and no other action in the turn they (dis)mount a transport" then it could have been quite simply and far more easily worded.

However going back to the original question of whether infantry can mount a vehicle as a reaction its quite clear that they can't, as they need a MOVE ACTION (it states move action on the transport card) to mount, and not a MOVE reaction, this would clear up a lot of the inconsistancy questions quite neatly. Although this is the only place I can see any difference between a move action and a move reaction.

 

[The Old Soldier]

However going back to the original question of whether infantry can mount a vehicle as a reaction its quite clear that they can't, as they need a MOVE ACTION (it states move action on the transport card) to mount, and not a MOVE reaction, this would clear up a lot of the inconsistancy questions quite neatly. Although this is the only place I can see any difference between a move action and a move reaction.

Did you read what was stated by Buship and Matt in the Rulemaster thread? The answer is quite clear. YES, you can board a vehicle as a reaction. There is no such thing as a move reaction. You are reading too much into it. When you react you may either take a MOVE action or a SHOOT action, and in the case of being suppressed, only a MOVE action.

Read page 22, second column, paragraph 2, I'll make it easy for you and quote it.......

Whenever an enemy unit completes an action within 10" of any model in one of your units, that unit may immediately make a free Shoot or Move action.

The underlining is mine.

 

[cordas]

Still not got my copy of the rule book *GRRR*

However that takes us back into the mud.

 

[GhostWolf69]

Oh the simplicity of having a separate Mount/Dismount Action...

Mount/Dismount - This action allows an Infantry Unit to move up to its speed and mount/dismount a Transport. Doing this takes up the entire turn for the Infantry Unit and no other action can be taken. Furthermore the Transporting Vehicle has to spend 1 Action to allow for the Infantry to be Mounted/Dismounted.

This rule; (the way I wrote it or thought I wrote it :wink: ) would allow Reaction-Mounting during the following circumstances:

1. Both Infantry AND Transport had not yet Reacted this turn.
2. Both Infantry Unit AND Transport Reacted to the same trigger event. (they were both in the same fire-zone or both within 10" of enemy movement)

Result:
The Infantry takes a Mount-Reaction, and the Vehicle "pays" his Reaction to allow for this, doing nothing else.

When it comes to supression I would play it like this:

Suppressed Infantry can Mount by Reaction - Yes.

Next time this unit is activated they can Dismount if they want to, remember; as Matt pointed out you don't acctually ACT or DO anything in order to remove supression so when this unit is activated it has ONE action, the other is just lost in space... and Dismounting is ONE Action. (It's just that you cannot DO anything else in that turn than Dismounting.)

If the Infantry Unit has more than ONE Suppression on it it will have to stay in the Transport until it has at least ONE Action available.

I think this might be very close to what Matt is saying; with the possible exception of me adding that the Transport Vehicle has to "pay" its Reaction to allow for the Mount and my added "pre-requisites".

/wolf