Reaction Question

[cordas]

Huh, the rule says

both the models and the Warrior can only take a single action in that turn

The single action applies to both transport and transported, so either it uses all 4 actions (2 for each) or it doesn't; its not 2 for transport and 1 for troops.

What I read the transport rule to say is that to dismount troops is actually a single action taken by BOTH the transport and transported troops. Surely if dismounting took all 4 actions, it would simply say "to dismount or mount troops takes the troops to move off / onto the transport, this manouver takes both actions for each unit."

 

[GhostWolf69]

I just read the card rules again... and honestly I don't know.

If every units have 2 Actions per default. And I have to make Move Action with my Infantry to Mount or Dismount.... and IF I do I'm only allowed ONE action in that turn... Then I guess that is ALL I'm doin in that turn.

The vehicle itself doesn't have to Move... so it still has ONE Action left in that turn.

Seems pretty clear to me.

/wolf

 

[cordas]

Sorry, but I will repeat myself here, I read this differently to you, and we have been playing this differently to your reading in the gaming group I play in (this doesn't mean we are right).

I am still at a loss as how you can read a quite clear statement "If models either enter or leave the warrior, then both the models and the Warrior can only take a single action in that turn" as allowing the warrior an action before or after (un)loading but not the troops.

The sentance breaks down into is stating that (un)loading transport affects both models and that if this occurs both units are restricted to a single action. If this means it takes both actions by both units to (un)load the troops then fine, otherwise both units have an additional action to take during their turn, the rule would have to be written completely differently to get your meaning, and have it make sense.

The "then both" statement seems to say to me that if a transport unloads in a turn then both units have a single action remaining to them.

 

[Paladin]

Namely; why would mounting dsuring reaction be more effective (in game terms costs less "actions") than mounting during your regular turn? And how do you compensate for that discrepancy?

It's more effective because you can "hide" and avoid death from multiple shots after the first enemy shoots at you.

I'd say option 3. Using the cards as a guide, I'd have to limit it to that.

That's what I think will be the MP solution. The reason I went with mine is I think the mounting rules should be changed not to lose an action of the vee but simply limiting to only a single Move action while mounting. #3 is the most fitting resolution based on the current rules.

 

[Paladin]

more mounting/dismounting clarifications:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=27162&start=0

 

[voncougar]

I was under the impression, after reading and re-reading the cards, that like cordas said, each model uses one action with the embark/disembark, and they get one more action.
i.e. a unit near a Transport may Shoot, then Move onto the vehicle to mount, and then the Transport may Move or Shoot.

BUT, as in the link Paladin posted, Matt has told us that the embark/disembark is the ONE move they are allowed...so all they can do is embark disembark.

I'm sorry, but IMO this is rubbishine.
I would expect that if you can move 4"+ in a Move action, you can jump into a Transport.
At the LEAST I would say that if the embarking models are base-to-base with the Transport they should get a 'second' Action.

When I'm demoing, I'll use the proper rules, but when I'm playing for fun I'll probably try and get my opponent to agree with me

 

[cordas]

I was under the impression, after reading and re-reading the cards, that like cordas said, each model uses one action with the embark/disembark, and they get one more action.
i.e. a unit near a Transport may Shoot, then Move onto the vehicle to mount, and then the Transport may Move or Shoot.

BUT, as in the link Paladin posted, Matt has told us that the embark/disembark is the ONE move they are allowed...so all they can do is embark disembark.

I'm sorry, but IMO this is rubbishine.
I would expect that if you can move 4"+ in a Move action, you can jump into a Transport.
At the LEAST I would say that if the embarking models are base-to-base with the Transport they should get a 'second' Action.

When I'm demoing, I'll use the proper rules, but when I'm playing for fun I'll probably try and get my opponent to agree with me

Have to admit that Matts comments make no sense to me as per usual.

If they wanted to have that as the rule for transports why not write the transport rule as "When (dis)mounting models from a transport, the transport may make one other action, the units ONLY action in the turn can be too (dis)mount". That would have given a clear rule that is easily understood, and has no alternative readings.

Personally I am just going to play the rule as written, which to me makes most sense with my reading of it (even if I am biased). :lol:

 

[GhostWolf69]

Personally I am just going to play the rule as written, which to me makes most sense with my reading of it (even if I am biased). :lol:

You're just mad cause I was right... :wink:

I will also play it as it IS written, namely the way they inteded it to be played.

Regardless... now we have an answer and we can all decide wether we like it or not and make up our own minds. To each his own.

Peace.

/wolf

 

[BuShips]

I'm teasing Matt to visit this thread so we might have some instructions to follow soon :wink:. At least by following Paladin's links we now at least know that the single Move Action that infantry models have in a turn is spent loading/unloading to/from the vehicle. I've asked an additional question of Matt that Wolf very brightly posed, that of whether the vehicle has to also spend its single remaining Action assisting the troops or whether it can say, "shoot". Obviously as I've said before, it should not be able to Move as that would be like stopping for a hitchhiker and then hitting the accelerator when they run up to you, heh. :wink:

 

[GhostWolf69]

I would not have a problem with a Move action on the Vehicles part.

It would be one Move in and Unload.

Or Upload and Move out.

Where as in both cases all the Infantry can do is Move ONCE on or off the Transport.

/wolf

 

[cordas]

I am now wondering what the point is in putting infantry in transports... Unless you have a command squad to make it usefull.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I am now wondering what the point is in putting infantry in transports... Unless you have a command squad to make it usefull.

fast redeployment? that's how I use mine, as well as to protect them from small arms fire

 

[cordas]

I am now wondering what the point is in putting infantry in transports... Unless you have a command squad to make it usefull.

fast redeployment? that's how I use mine, as well as to protect them from small arms fire

its not that fast when its going to take a turn to get them in, and a turn to get them out again... might as well use the transport as a bullet shield (block LOS) and run the guys behind it, allowing it to shoot and move.

 

[BuShips]

I would not have a problem with a Move action on the Vehicles part.

It would be one Move in and Unload.

Or Upload and Move out.

Where as in both cases all the Infantry can do is Move ONCE on or off the Transport.

/wolf

Yes, I may have to drop my concept of "simultaneity" and just do it like you said. It still follows the rules as written and also keeps the game flow moving which is important as well.

Matt has said that he has no problem with a Suppressed unit of infantry boarding a vehicle, as being Suppressed takes away a future Action but does not inhibit a Move. A more restrictive solution might be to force the infantry to expend their Move to get to the unengaged side of the vehicle and then spend their next turn to board under less threatening conditions, but I'm sure Matt was thinking in terms of game flow (which is a good thing).

 

[Paladin]

its not that fast when its going to take a turn to get them in, and a turn to get them out again... might as well use the transport as a bullet shield (block LOS) and run the guys behind it, allowing it to shoot and move.

Start the game with them loaded.

 

[cordas]

Matt has said that he has no problem with a Suppressed unit of infantry boarding a vehicle, as being Suppressed takes away a future Action but does not inhibit a Move. A more restrictive solution might be to force the infantry to expend their Move to get to the unengaged side of the vehicle and then spend their next turn to board under less threatening conditions, but I'm sure Matt was thinking in terms of game flow (which is a good thing).

Wouldn't suppresed take away the only move action available to the unit stopping it from boarding (unless it was moving as a reaction). Either that or only half the models should be able to mount??

 

[GhostWolf69]

I am now wondering what the point is in putting infantry in transports... Unless you have a command squad to make it usefull.

fast redeployment? that's how I use mine, as well as to protect them from small arms fire

its not that fast when its going to take a turn to get them in, and a turn to get them out again... might as well use the transport as a bullet shield (block LOS) and run the guys behind it, allowing it to shoot and move.

I guess the real question here is one of table size! IF you have a BIG table then it will be worth the effort to mount/dismount because foot doesn't move as fast as vehicles.

If the table is smaller and you can get where you want in just a couple of moves by foot... then yes Mechanized Infantry might be a waste of time... but hey isn't that the way it is supposed to be? Why spend time mounting up if you have to move two blocks down the road?

The second point of transports is ofcourse armor...
And firepower... and... well....

Personally it is also a matter of taste... I like having a taxi on-call if things get hairy.

/Wolf

 

[BuShips]

its not that fast when its going to take a turn to get them in, and a turn to get them out again... might as well use the transport as a bullet shield (block LOS) and run the guys behind it, allowing it to shoot and move.

I don't know if it's broke at all. It's just that you would do the vehicle move first and have the troops pile out using the second Action. That keeps to the rules. Each are using their single Action. You would reverse the sequence when embarking troops as Wolf said (load and scoot). What should be disallowed would be moving the vehicle off after unloading troops, if it was the second action of the turn (unless using a Command turn do do it with).

 

[GhostWolf69]

Matt has said that he has no problem with a Suppressed unit of infantry boarding a vehicle, as being Suppressed takes away a future Action but does not inhibit a Move. A more restrictive solution might be to force the infantry to expend their Move to get to the unengaged side of the vehicle and then spend their next turn to board under less threatening conditions, but I'm sure Matt was thinking in terms of game flow (which is a good thing).

See this (reaction) is where I don't really get it... someone has to explain this one to me like I was a five year old. Cause no matter how I twist or turn I can't get what they are trying to say.

I have not read all the comment everywhere about this and honestly the rules are pretty vague as written.

Here is the way I read the rules... I have NO IDEA If this is what Matt et al. inteded:

example1:
My Inf Unit with transport is taking fire.
Both units can react.
Inf unit reacts by mounting the tranport.
Transport reacts by moving away, with the inf unit inside.

Question 1: Is this a valid procedure?

Question 2: Are there any other pre-requisite for this to be a valid option that I have not mentioned here?

Question 3: What happens in My next turn? Can both my units still act twice? Or are they both reduced to ONE action because of the mounting in my opponents turn?

example2:
My Inf Unit with transport is taking fire.
The infantry becomes supressed.
Both units can react.
Inf unit reacts by mounting the tranport (a valid move action under supression).
Transport reacts by moving away, with the inf unit inside.

Question 4: During my next turn... what happens with my suppressed mounted inf unit?

Question 5: Can it even attempt to dismount in the following turn?

Question 6: It has to "lose" one action due to suppression, but in a turn where it mounts or dismounts it is only allowed one action... so what happens here?

Question 7: Do I have to stay in the car for one full round before moving out again?

/wolf

 

[Hiromoon]

And here I thought some of the transports can't react...